What have you done to improve the Sense of Weight in your system? What technology or upgrade is most impactful?
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
For greatest sense of weight:
1. Dial-in / fine-tune the subwoofer.
2. Fine-tune main speaker positioning within the room.
3. Ensure that I listen at reasonable or higher volume levels to immerse myself in some of that weight.
The room itself certainly has little/nothing directly to do with extracting the weight of a superior playback presentation.
1. Dial-in / fine-tune the subwoofer.
2. Fine-tune main speaker positioning within the room.
3. Ensure that I listen at reasonable or higher volume levels to immerse myself in some of that weight.
The room itself certainly has little/nothing directly to do with extracting the weight of a superior playback presentation.
Re-positioned the speakers and adjusted their onboard subs accordingly. Basically we set the speakers up in such a way as to leverage the front boundaries then dialed down the subs and set phase accordingly. It helps that all 4 subs of the Ultra 11 have individual amps/controls so the subs that are flown over 6 feet of the ground can be optimized to get a full frontal wave effect fully utilizing the upper half of the room's front third equally with the bottom half.
One of the reasons I favor concentric array loudspeakers (W-W-M-T-M-W-W) is that they make a properly sorted full frontal wave easy to accomplish as opposed to having bass just roll along the floor. It's great for me because it simulates the launch of a live event be it a large concert array or acoustics off a concert hall "clamshell". Every voice and instrument gains body and weight while giving clearer cues towards the size of the venue be it recorded live or constructed with artificial reverb.
I said easier but not really easy per se. It took us* roughly 8 hours to get it right to the point where it was source and genre agnostic. Benefits range from the smallest of works to the craziest recordings by Telarc LOL
* Leif, Damon, Keith and myself
One of the reasons I favor concentric array loudspeakers (W-W-M-T-M-W-W) is that they make a properly sorted full frontal wave easy to accomplish as opposed to having bass just roll along the floor. It's great for me because it simulates the launch of a live event be it a large concert array or acoustics off a concert hall "clamshell". Every voice and instrument gains body and weight while giving clearer cues towards the size of the venue be it recorded live or constructed with artificial reverb.
I said easier but not really easy per se. It took us* roughly 8 hours to get it right to the point where it was source and genre agnostic. Benefits range from the smallest of works to the craziest recordings by Telarc LOL
* Leif, Damon, Keith and myself
what does weight mean musically? weight/authority/foundation/ease are all interrelated terms. in frequency terms it's mostly the mid-bass; the deep bass being also part of it. i think a system can have 'weight' without really deep extension. but deep extension can increase the degree of weight. it's not the main course, but maybe separates the very good degree of weight, from the top rung of it.
weight starts with a linear and fast mid bass. non-linearities in the mid bass due to crossovers or room issues, or just inability to move air, reduce the amount of weight. ease in the mid bass separates the good from the excellent. in my system i have a speaker system that while twin tower is purpose designed to be seamless in the mid bass, and has as much driver surface as any dynamic speaker on the market. it goes very deep and stays linear into the teens.
The drivers on both MM7 towers are phase and time aligned for a unified wave launch and the MM7’s use a 1st order crossover. And all the drivers are equidistant from the main listening position.
it did take me 6 weeks to dial in my bass towers (adjusting the active bass controls--( 2 sets of (4) adjustments in each bass tower), after i did my final physical room corrections 4 years ago now.
and maybe weight = weight. my speaker system does weigh 3000 pounds. can't say that is an issue for sure. but maybe related to the result.
another part of weight is resonance control. structural and acoustic feedback from high SPL's can really compromise the sense of weight by smearing the music. this can really manifest itself in the degree of ambient retrieval from the recording, the sense of venue, foundation and weight really increases. my system has both lots of passive resonance control and 5 active devices that maintain linearity in the whole signal path.
lastly you need a great power grid, and lots of headroom in the amplification. i have both.
most impactful piece? hard to look at it that way. it's an interrelated system. maybe the speaker system is the limiting factor.....maybe.
tubes mostly do bring an artifact of the sense of weight. it's a pleasing artifact for sure. solid state must work harder to match this. the issue though as the system gets pushed hard is; do the tubes stay linear and truly breathe and scale? in my system i found that on some music tubes hold things back from the top rung for this. yet with some music at lower SPL's they increase the weight. so it just depends on your expectations how that plays out. but tubes are a shortcut to having a feeling of weight in the music assuming they are well matched to the speakers.
weight starts with a linear and fast mid bass. non-linearities in the mid bass due to crossovers or room issues, or just inability to move air, reduce the amount of weight. ease in the mid bass separates the good from the excellent. in my system i have a speaker system that while twin tower is purpose designed to be seamless in the mid bass, and has as much driver surface as any dynamic speaker on the market. it goes very deep and stays linear into the teens.
The drivers on both MM7 towers are phase and time aligned for a unified wave launch and the MM7’s use a 1st order crossover. And all the drivers are equidistant from the main listening position.
it did take me 6 weeks to dial in my bass towers (adjusting the active bass controls--( 2 sets of (4) adjustments in each bass tower), after i did my final physical room corrections 4 years ago now.
and maybe weight = weight. my speaker system does weigh 3000 pounds. can't say that is an issue for sure. but maybe related to the result.
another part of weight is resonance control. structural and acoustic feedback from high SPL's can really compromise the sense of weight by smearing the music. this can really manifest itself in the degree of ambient retrieval from the recording, the sense of venue, foundation and weight really increases. my system has both lots of passive resonance control and 5 active devices that maintain linearity in the whole signal path.
lastly you need a great power grid, and lots of headroom in the amplification. i have both.
most impactful piece? hard to look at it that way. it's an interrelated system. maybe the speaker system is the limiting factor.....maybe.
tubes mostly do bring an artifact of the sense of weight. it's a pleasing artifact for sure. solid state must work harder to match this. the issue though as the system gets pushed hard is; do the tubes stay linear and truly breathe and scale? in my system i found that on some music tubes hold things back from the top rung for this. yet with some music at lower SPL's they increase the weight. so it just depends on your expectations how that plays out. but tubes are a shortcut to having a feeling of weight in the music assuming they are well matched to the speakers.
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The best weight I have heard have been 4 dual FLH horns driven by SETs, including Leif's, Henk's apogee grands, and the yamamura which was a gigantic crossover less horn. Based on videos, what Stavros plays in Cyprus is as good as all the above.
There are others with deeper bass, but these were the best weight.
As to what weight is, Mike already summed it up perfectly in the above post
"weight/authority/foundation/ease are all interrelated terms. in frequency terms it's mostly the mid-bass; the deep bass being also part of it. i think a system can have 'weight' without really deep extension. but deep extension can increase the degree of weight. it's not the main course, but maybe separates the very good degree of weight, from the top rung of it.
weight starts with a linear and fast mid bass. non-linearities in the mid bass due to crossovers or room issues, or just inability to move air, reduce the amount of weight. ease in the mid bass separates the good from the excellent."
The systems I mentioned above had weight mainly due to the correct speaker design. In the in the absence of not having that, or having compromised speakers like 95 percent will, weight can be increased by upstream components, cables, etc, but it will never be as seamless, integrated, and coherent
There are others with deeper bass, but these were the best weight.
As to what weight is, Mike already summed it up perfectly in the above post
"weight/authority/foundation/ease are all interrelated terms. in frequency terms it's mostly the mid-bass; the deep bass being also part of it. i think a system can have 'weight' without really deep extension. but deep extension can increase the degree of weight. it's not the main course, but maybe separates the very good degree of weight, from the top rung of it.
weight starts with a linear and fast mid bass. non-linearities in the mid bass due to crossovers or room issues, or just inability to move air, reduce the amount of weight. ease in the mid bass separates the good from the excellent."
The systems I mentioned above had weight mainly due to the correct speaker design. In the in the absence of not having that, or having compromised speakers like 95 percent will, weight can be increased by upstream components, cables, etc, but it will never be as seamless, integrated, and coherent
Interesting question Cesar. For me it was improving four fundamental aspects of system set up:
1. Power delivery including power cords
2. Rack/support platforms for my components
3. Speaker position and orientation
4. Cartridge set up
In my case, the “sense of weight“ I hear from my system was simply brought into better balance with the rest of the sound. Before those changes, it was noticeably lacking. I think the critical thing is finding a balance where it does not draw attention to itself but rather just blends into the overall sound for a more natural presentation.
Edit: One could also approach the issue with gear changes, but I wanted to see what I could do with the existing system as it was and improve the relative “sense of weight“ within my system context for a more balanced and natural sound.
Because my approach is one of balance and now, not drawing attention to any one particular attribute of the sound, I will use what I learned when I do make component changes in the future. The goal will be to improve the quality of the sound while maintaining this balance rather than the quantity or character of a specific aspect of the sound.
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Two things for me. Changing the listening postion and speaker position & adding the Gryphon Mephisto
I must say can't understand what is meant exactly by "sense of weight" in general - may be a mixture of slam, bass fullness and scale? Although I see the point of Mike definition I think it is an optimistic definition of weight - we can have a "sense of weight" even on systems that have no easiness.
I have found that cables can have a great effect in these aspects, but above all power is needed with most speakers to have a sense of weight. And surely strong resonances and bass nulls or peaks kill the proper sense of weight.
BTW, sometimes the concept of weight is used to refer to a negative aspect - for example, too bass heavy.
I have found that cables can have a great effect in these aspects, but above all power is needed with most speakers to have a sense of weight. And surely strong resonances and bass nulls or peaks kill the proper sense of weight.
BTW, sometimes the concept of weight is used to refer to a negative aspect - for example, too bass heavy.
Mike's definition is spot on. But as I mentioned in my earlier post, people with compromised speakers can increase weight with cables, though it is not the same.
The right weight is so difficult because speakers and systems are either too heavy or too light. That balance, integration, seamless ness is so difficult.
The right weight is so difficult because speakers and systems are either too heavy or too light. That balance, integration, seamless ness is so difficult.
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Assuming your speakers play low frequencies I’d suggest speakers positioning ,cables etc. Thereafter the amp and source is important. I noticed class D amplifiers lack bass heft. What equipment are you using ?
sources and cables can definitely change the degree of 'weight' perception in the music. recently the newest LFD phono cable is exceptional in conveying weight with amazing degrees of texture added. the Rockport Sirius System III had a magical extra element of weight. my long ago Dobbins Garrard 301 had a beguiling degree of weight......if not the most articulate. the Saskia takes what the Garrard did and adds many degrees of definition to that sense of weight and is musically much more agile. when i took the special metal counter-weights from my Durand Telos Sapphire and used them on other tonearms (both standard Telos and the Tosca), there was a clear added degree of weight. going from one power supply to two power supplies (which separated the digital and analog power supplies into separate chassis with separate power cords) with my MSB Select II dac brought a noticeable increase in bass weight.
we are sensitive to when we do something that isolates the positive change in bass weight. our senses pick up on it right away and our feelings about the music improve. it's almost always a really desired thing.......when there is no down side. this is where you need linearity and cohesion in the mid bass to be able to fully enjoy the optimal degree of weight. it's just music and not falling over into one note 'fat' bass. with some gear one must choose the correct balance, the best gear can deliver it all.
but the fundamental system ability to express the weight is still the big deal. lots of weight without it being articulate mostly gets dull and plodding (the worst of tubes). not to say systems can't have nice weight to the music yet not be overall that refined. i've heard that.
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Well, one of the most interesting directions I've gone with my system is gradually turning subs output down, first from 60Hz to 40Hz, and then the level down from 5/10 to 3/10. In my old room, my current settings would never have worked, but here this seems optimal.
My take is that my mids are now unencumbered, and "weight" is coming from those mids being fully fleshed out, and not the false weight of overripe subs
...you could call over reliance on subs as "dead weight".
However, it's taken a whole new room with much smoother bass response, power/cables that maximise mids palpability, and noise floor reduction, to get to this point.
Getting my mids to be fully textured, maintaining full range driver speed, and deep bass to be supportive as opposed to over-intrusive, has got me to the right balance of weight in my system.
My take is that my mids are now unencumbered, and "weight" is coming from those mids being fully fleshed out, and not the false weight of overripe subs
...you could call over reliance on subs as "dead weight".
However, it's taken a whole new room with much smoother bass response, power/cables that maximise mids palpability, and noise floor reduction, to get to this point.
Getting my mids to be fully textured, maintaining full range driver speed, and deep bass to be supportive as opposed to over-intrusive, has got me to the right balance of weight in my system.
Once you get the AS 2000 that you will end up with, you will know Peter !
I like your thinking brotherWhy stop at one when you can have 2 ?
Shit i am looking around for 2 more MBL 9011 amps for my setup, clean fast really good SS power can be addictiveI like your thinking brother
Adding a 2nd amp (Luxman M800a) and running them in bridged mono.
Going from 60 to 240 Class A watts not only increased the density and weight of the sound (especially when played loud)
but also elevated the room temperature to new heights!
Going from 60 to 240 Class A watts not only increased the density and weight of the sound (especially when played loud)
but also elevated the room temperature to new heights!
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