What does it mean when people describe Digital as Sounding like "Analog"? Best term?

[Kingrex]

Tao was hitting on what I think is the most important topic if your measuring digital and vinyl. It's what really is natural and real. One of rhe members at Audionirvana was doing a deep 4 part dive on a Pass Preamp. His first pages was just finding what is natural. He talked of spending days at an orchestra with a mentor explaining what to listen for, what to feel for. What is "live". He then realized his stereo was tunes for "hifi". Not "live".

In bet most people tune for hifi. I would contend my digital is a little more hifi and my vinyl is a little more live. Simply focusing on what live really is and building out your digital with isolstion, cables, power etc that emulate a live sound, may help shift your digital from a hifi sound and more to live sound.

FWIW. If you find the thread, I tried Ching Cheng cables. They were not right for me. But I don't know that $5000 cables are either. 4 of my cables are a nice hook up wire with a decent female socket at my equipment. Instead of a male plug going into a receptacle at my wall I use a cord grip and bring the cable into a box where it is split bolted and taped to the branch circuit wires from my house. I measure 0mv of potential between the neutral and ground at my preamp and .12mv at my amps. Thats pretty darn good. When I started at my friend Eds place, he had up to 70mv inside his panel. God only knows what was going on at his rack. His main panel is now 0. His sub panel was 30mv. Its 45 feet from his main panel. Its copper #4. Even the ground is #4. Since I last measured he added new ground rods and took his ground rod resistance from 40 or 50 ohms to 1/2 an ohm. That may have dropped his neutral to ground resistance even lower at his sub panel.
My point is, what are you doing to get the foundation of your system set up in such a way thay it is stable. Stable so that you have a base to start from and "tune" your system to a "live or natural" sound. Do you even know what that is. The goal isn't a comparison of vinyl to digital. Its tuning your equipmemt to reproduce a sound you like. Which many here say is recreation of a live venue or studio performance. Have you spent time with your server and dac placing them on different racks. Different footers. Different power cables. Different digital cables. Your digital may be able to close the gap on "live" more than you think if you focus on what that really sounds like and work towards it.
Im poor so I have to use what I can. I hear a big difference between the footers I use under my server and phono preamp. I have tried all sorts of iterations and these are the best. A bead and corian on vinyl and insulation on corian for digital. Just making the point about listening and turning to what you hear.

 

[thedudeabides]

you think i'm of a mind to consider that we are going to compromise on how this matches a digital version?ha!!!!!
never!!!

I think I understand english pretty well and the intent of the above (my bold / underline emphasis) is obvious to me. Unfortunately, you don't seem to read the intent (judgement of digital version as a compromise) the same way. What did I miss?

A request. No need to capitilize your posts when you respond to me. As you know, that's the internet version of shouting.

Happy Fathers Day to all. Best.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think I understand english pretty well and the intent of the above (my bold / underline emphasis) is obvious to me. Unfortunately, you don't seem to read the intent (judgement of digital version as a compromise) the same way. What did I miss?

A request. No need to capitilize your posts when you respond to me. As you know, that's the internet version of shouting.

Happy Fathers Day to all.

fair enough, got full of myself and carried away. meant no offense.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Al, from the 4 year i was part owner in a commercial recording studio i have come to realize that engineers/producers are a different breed of people.They have excellent ears but a totally different mindset, most do not care about “natural” or recreating an event, they like to manipulate sound to their liking. Big sound, round bass, compressors that dirty up certain tracks on a recording is more interesting to them, and a good master is often given its final listen in a shitty car stereo. These people love digital recording for its cut and paste convenience, running the same 20 seconds again and again adding on effects voice overs and extra instruments to make it sound different or catchy. Natural and recreation of real events is rarely on the Radar (Random Access Digital Audio Recorder) system.

There are those studios that really care about SQ, but I believe the biggest impediments in most studios are cost and culture. Every studio equipment is just like different playback equipment. They are all at different levels of perfection. Most believe that a Lavry DAC is the best on the planet and that any old XLR "patch cord" is good enough. The culture of most studio engineers is that they are the experts and some audiophile has nothing to teach them, even if he is an engineer also. They must ultimately satisfy the management, so if the goal is not SQ when played back in an audiophile system, they make compromises. I agree with you that the management often just wants something that delivers a lot of bass on a boombox or car stereo.

Another recent development is the ability to capture, mix and convert audio totally digitally using DSP software. The quality of this software makes all the difference. Select the wrong one and you are always limited in SQ.

I believe it is more the mindset of the studio and engineers that results in a good recording. If they are open to try new things and really tweak their recording and playback systems for accuracy and naturalness, then they can be the exception. Unfortunately, these kinds of open minds are scarce. I believe it is a job, not a passion for most of them, so it never gets to this level. The folks at Bluecoast are one exception. They still capture and mix with multi-track tape and avoid adding any compression. They convert to digital as a last step. They designed their recording studio acoustically correct and take great care in mic placements and selection. I don't know what they use for DAC or cables. It could probably be even better.

If you want examples of historical studios that had almost no cost limitations and the engineers were creative and open-minded, Abbey Road studio and Paul McCartney's own Sussex studio are examples. Old tube equipment and old mics, but they knew what they were doing. Because the equipment back then was all balanced and terminated with 600 ohms, the cable quality had little effect. Some of those Beatles and Paul McCartney recordings are amazing for that era. Dynamic, great imaging, no compression and very lifelike.

I actually believe now that the recording equipment/process is the biggest impediment in the chain, not the playback system. It's time that studios realize this and take steps to improve their product.

 

[Kingrex]

Not just recording studios. A friend gave me his new CD. I told him it sounded like crap and explained why. He took it to band and recording engineer. They compared the cd to the master. It turns out, the duplicator decided to modify their master to his liking and Fddd their entire CD. Sucks for them as they did not know till returning from the Memphis Blues fest where that CD was distributed for professional purposes.

 

[Kingrex]

Shostakovitch music is much harder to follow and reproduce. Unless everything is properly recorded and reproduced it becomes a mess, impossible to follow and enjoy. It is simultaneously visceral and melodic, filled with detail and brutal dynamics. I have listened several times to performances of his symphonies, and have listened to reproduction in top LP and digital in great systems. IMHO digital approaches more what I listen in the concert hall. A good friend who his a Shostakovitch expert and has experience with the great european orchestras was delighted to be able to easily separate the digital recordings carried with the Concertgbow Orchestra due the unique string texture and signature of their viola sections.

The Savall has a diversity and complexity behind what is possible to record in the analogue domain. I was at his life final performance of this work and again IMHO the digital recording captures more of the performance than any previous recording I know about of this type of music - [/QUOTE]
On another forum a member noted there are a lot of very well mic and recorded classical music done recently in digital. I actually agree that there is a wealth of digital classical that is wonderfull to listen too. For me, mostly due to it being clean, dynamic and well mic so less of the instruments are lost in the whole of the orchestra.

On vinyl, the simple chamber music can be excellent where your only focusing on the purity of a violin and cello

 

[Al M.]

On another forum a member noted there are a lot of very well mic and recorded classical music done recently in digital. I actually agree that there is a wealth of digital classical that is wonderfull to listen too. For me, mostly due to it being clean, dynamic and well mic so less of the instruments are lost in the whole of the orchestra.

I too agree. In classical music, there is great quality to be found in digital recordings.

That is the case even from the big labels. Microstrip has noted how good many DGG recordings can sound, once the playback chain improves in quality. I have noticed the same; some DGG recordings that I had found to be mediocre in the past now sound fantastic on my system.

While they mostly concentrate on smaller ensemble music, I have found that the digital recordings by the small Austrian label Kairos are consistently of very high quality, and often among the very best recordings of unamplified music, period. The music may not be everyone's cup of tea: they exclusively specialize in contemporary classical avantgarde music. I love a lot of it.

On vinyl, the simple chamber music can be excellent where your only focusing on the purity of a violin and cello

True. There are also large scale recordings that sound fantastic on vinyl.

 

[tima]

Can we stipulate that digital recording doesn't capture sound because it is discontinuous and sound is not?

Father's day started in 1910. Before that there were no fathers

But plenty of mothers.

 

[Al M.]

Can we stipulate that digital recording doesn't capture sound because it is discontinuous and sound is not?

Hehe.

 

[tima]

or this 45rpm pressing of the Peter Maag Mendelssohn Scotch Symphony........string textures, again, digital cannot dream about.

I totally adore that recording - used it in my second ever review, 2004:

"Textural sweeps across sections are fleshed out with the air and definition of massed strings and immediately you know this is an orchestra in space in a hall. Woodwinds burble up the leading edge of an orchestral swell. One hears lower-frequency undercurrents as a well-delineated substructure supporting lots of movement. Basses are light and fast -- not light in weight, but quick and distinct."

The review was of the Nightingale ATS-90 Mono amplifiers. The review begins with the story of the Emperor of China who wished to hear the nightingale sing for him. She came willingly and he put her in a golden cage and her nightly singing brought tears to the Emperor's eyes. One day from across the sea came a package holding a jewel encrusted mechanical nightingale. The mechanical bird matched the real nightingale note for note. The living nightingale escaped to the forest where she sang for farmers and fishermen. When the Emperor was on his deathbed he heard the song of the nightingale in the forest. He went into the forest and her signing restored his life. Something the mechanical nightingale could not do.

It was Mike's reference to the analog Scotch Symphony that caused me to think of that. Somehow it seemed relevant to this thread.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Can we stipulate that digital recording doesn't capture sound because it is discontinuous and sound is not?


But plenty of mothers.

Lol on the second part... not so sure in the first part... but all good either way

 

[the sound of Tao]

Looking fwds to all those staying digital is superior technically, and thus also inevitably in practice, repeating the claim by staying w Roon on the umpteenth SQ degrading update Lol.

Or are we saying digital slays so comprehensively it outperforms no matter what happens at Roon?

The wisest ones are saying very little Marc... can one ever truly revive a so fully flogged filly... and aren’t there just way more important things to worry about in 2020

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Graham, if we take your last statement at fave value, just shut the whole forum down and be happy with your lot.

 

[tima]

Lol on the second part... not so sure in the first part... but all good either way

I figured since we were stipulating ...

 

[the sound of Tao]

Marc I’m just saying the great (not) analogue digital debate is simply more complex than you are suggesting here. There is no evidence that digital is inherently a fail because of any changes in the various players... they’ve been changing for over a decade. But probably no more sonically (possibly less) than when you change a tt or a tonearm or a cart... it says nothing about the limits or otherwise of either medium.

Anyone who can’t make a good system with either in this age should have a very good look at themselves. It’s nowhere near as hard as some seem to like to suggest. We mistake perfection with the easily attainable and therefore the very minimum standard to attain any happiness. Epic fail right away. There’s so few here that attain Sota... that’s as it is. I’m sure all our systems are flawed but as long as the flaws don’t detract from your enjoyment of music than this makes any music system potentially valid. This is different for sound systems. I’ve got music systems because that is where my heart is. Each must set their own philosophy on this. Now you’ve gone and made me say plenty of this topic which clearly makes me also unwise

 

[bonzo75]

I think we have a consensus to stipulate that anyone who comments on this topic further on is unwise

 

[bonzo75]

Marc can now focus his wisdom on idler vs DD vs belt

 

[spiritofmusic]

Wisdom is wisdom, Ked. I can't help where it takes me.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Can we stipulate that digital recording doesn't capture sound because it is discontinuous and sound is not?

wisdom be stuffed...

Could this also read Tim as digital recording doesn’t capture sound because sound can be disingenuous and music is not? and in space no-one can hear you scream anyways so it’s all moot really... I’m listening to some fantastic music tonight... nothing else really matters... love and peace to all.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yep, agreed. Wisdom and high end audio...not natural partners.
Imagine claiming you've bought wisely Lol.