What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

Extremely interesting post. Amir made some very intelligent posts on the Audiophile style forum.
Most of what he said is intelligent, except for this point:

"when you hear low efficiency speakers with high power ss amplifiers you just have macro dynamics not micro dynamics."

Both macrodynamics and microdynamics are killed in low efficiency designs due to voice coil heating and overall structural complexity. Imagine a full orchestral performance such as Beethoven’s 5th Symphony or Orff’s Carmina Burana, where the music begins softly with gentle strings and flutes before the entire orchestra suddenly erupts in a powerful forte. This dramatic leap is a prime example of macrodynamics. Yet on low eff speakers, where voice coil heating raises resistance, that explosive entrance loses much of its impact and instead sounds compressed and restrained, as though the orchestra has been robbed of its true power.
 
"High order crossovers. 24dB and 48dB. This thing is a direct death for music and very symbolic and indicative that any single person who approaches the Magico is a barbarian in Sound and Music. With 24dB and 48dB per octave those speakers are only capable to play heavy metal and black rap, which was exactly the music that the Magico guy had in his disposal in Vegas."
Clearly a case of not knowing what one is talking about, in this case on account that it is impossible for any electronics (including loudspeakers) to favor a particular musical genre. This is one of the most common myths in audio and its been around a long time.
Most of what he said is intelligent, except for this point:

"when you hear low efficiency speakers with high power ss amplifiers you just have macro dynamics not micro dynamics."

Both macrodynamics and microdynamics are killed in low efficiency designs due to voice coil heating and overall structural complexity. Imagine a full orchestral performance such as Beethoven’s 5th Symphony or Orff’s Carmina Burana, where the music begins softly with gentle strings and flutes before the entire orchestra suddenly erupts in a powerful forte. This dramatic leap is a prime example of macrodynamics. Yet on low eff speakers, where voice coil heating raises resistance, that explosive entrance loses much of its impact and instead sounds compressed and restrained, as though the orchestra has been robbed of its true power.
When I have encountered this I've found myself turning up the volume in a forlorn attempt to get the impact I'm used to hearing from speakers with greater efficiency. It doesn't work.

The only speakers I've seen that are not high efficiency but do have excellent dynamic impact are ESLs, in particular large ones. They don't have a voice coil and so do not have thermal compression. One of them, the top of the line Popori, has efficiency that rivals horn speakers. Its rated at 96dB, but as anyone familiar with panel speakers knows, to get a more accurate assessment of the actual sensitivity of the panel you have to add 6dB since most of the speaker's energy is not picked up by a microphone only 1 foot away. IIRC its also a benign load of 8 Ohms.
 
Here is a quite thorough technical paper that questions the effect of voice coil heating on dynamic compression:

(If you don't want to read the whole thing, jump to the last few graphs and conclusion at the end of the paper.)

The findings correlate with my experience that you can find very dynamic sounding speakers below 95 dB sensitivity (or any arbitrary sensitivity cut-off you like), provided you have sufficient amplifier power.
 
Most of what he said is intelligent, except for this point:

"when you hear low efficiency speakers with high power ss amplifiers you just have macro dynamics not micro dynamics."

Both macrodynamics and microdynamics are killed in low efficiency designs due to voice coil heating and overall structural complexity. Imagine a full orchestral performance such as Beethoven’s 5th Symphony or Orff’s Carmina Burana, where the music begins softly with gentle strings and flutes before the entire orchestra suddenly erupts in a powerful forte. This dramatic leap is a prime example of macrodynamics. Yet on low eff speakers, where voice coil heating raises resistance, that explosive entrance loses much of its impact and instead sounds compressed and restrained, as though the orchestra has been robbed of its true power.
This is total garbage, hahaha , the internet is really a dangerous place, i need a vest ..!


:)
 
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Here is a quite thorough technical paper that questions the effect of voice coil heating on dynamic compression:

(If you don't want to read the whole thing, jump to the last few graphs and conclusion at the end of the paper.)

The findings correlate with my experience that you can find very dynamic sounding speakers below 95 dB sensitivity (or any arbitrary sensitivity cut-off you like), provided you have sufficient amplifier power.
VC heating in a domestic setting is the typical strawman argument loved by the power challenged ..!

Most here has never measured a speaker to even know the bunk they are talking, the level of intellectual dishonesty is amazing ..

:)
 
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That's right, I confirm what Kedar says.


Sounds decent; it has better bite in the E-guitars and better vocal sound than some other system videos of the track. Yet it lacks articulation, weight and punch in the upper and mid bass (drums, bass guitar). Maybe a limitation of the phone mic used.

It may sound great in person, but this video does not manage to show off great sound.
 
Sounds decent; it has better bite in the E-guitars and better vocal sound than some other system videos of the track. Yet it lacks articulation, weight and punch in the upper and mid bass (drums, bass guitar). Maybe a limitation of the phone mic used.

It may sound great in person, but this video does not manage to show off great sound.

It is the best rock I have heard on a system. lots of weight and perfect punch without bloat. Absolutely fantastic and my phone video reflects that as well, to me and to many that have heard it. If you don’t hear it right, that’s up to you and your video analysis which you don’t believe in anyway but want to participate in.
 
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Sounds decent; it has better bite in the E-guitars and better vocal sound than some other system videos of the track. Yet it lacks articulation, weight and punch in the upper and mid bass (drums, bass guitar). Maybe a limitation of the phone mic used.
Yes. On that account, even though you might hear differences, you don't really know what those differences from video to video actually are.
 
Clearly a case of not knowing what one is talking about, in this case on account that it is impossible for any electronics (including loudspeakers) to favor a particular musical genre. This is one of the most common myths in audio and its been around a long time.
It seems you read Romy too literally. He wasn’t saying speakers “like” certain genres. He meant high-order crossovers smear phase and kill microdynamics, which makes subtle music like classical suffer, while only loud, compressed music still comes across OK. It was exaggeration to make a point.

“It is impossible for any electronics (including loudspeakers) to favor a particular musical genre.”

But your statement is scientifically correct.
Here is a quite thorough technical paper that questions the effect of voice coil heating on dynamic compression:

(If you don't want to read the whole thing, jump to the last few graphs and conclusion at the end of the paper.)

The findings correlate with my experience that you can find very dynamic sounding speakers below 95 dB sensitivity (or any arbitrary sensitivity cut-off you like), provided you have sufficient amplifier power.
The problem with that argument is that it’s just a theoretical model. it means the author did not perform actual measurements on a real loudspeaker. Instead, he relied on a mathematical model and computer simulation, using assumptions such as the thermal capacity and mass of the voice coil, the cooling time constant, and the applied power. From this, he concluded that voice coil heating does not cause dynamic compression. The issue is that such a model only reflects idealized and simplified conditions, not the realities of loudspeaker use, things like imperfect cooling, airflow variations, mechanical limits, or very high SPL. In other words, it’s an analysis on paper, not real-world testing. That’s why the claim is overly optimistic and doesn’t match what real-world measurements and listening tests actually show. Power compression is well documented by Stereophile, AES papers, even Wikipedia mention several dB of loss.
So wait , only high efficiency speakers have dynamic impact …?

Hillarious ..
Not exactly. High efficiency speakers usually preserve both macrodynamics and microdynamics more effectively because they require less power and run cooler. Low efficiency speakers can still deliver good dynamics, if they have proper cooling and sufficient amplifier headroom, although in more controlled and less lively way.
 
400k speaker with Krell in a dedicated room




 
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It is the best rock I have heard on a system. lots of weight and perfect punch without bloat. Absolutely fantastic and my phone video reflects that as well, to me and to many that have heard it. If you don’t hear it right, that’s up to you and your video analysis which you don’t believe in anyway but want to participate in.

I conceded that the sound in person may be great. The video does not reflect that, emphatic protestations notwithstanding.
 
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It seems you read Romy too literally. He wasn’t saying speakers “like” certain genres. He meant high-order crossovers smear phase and kill microdynamics, which makes subtle music like classical suffer, while only loud, compressed music still comes across OK. It was exaggeration to make a point.

“It is impossible for any electronics (including loudspeakers) to favor a particular musical genre.”

But your statement is scientifically correct.

The problem with that argument is that it’s just a theoretical model. it means the author did not perform actual measurements on a real loudspeaker. Instead, he relied on a mathematical model and computer simulation, using assumptions such as the thermal capacity and mass of the voice coil, the cooling time constant, and the applied power. From this, he concluded that voice coil heating does not cause dynamic compression. The issue is that such a model only reflects idealized and simplified conditions, not the realities of loudspeaker use, things like imperfect cooling, airflow variations, mechanical limits, or very high SPL. In other words, it’s an analysis on paper, not real-world testing. That’s why the claim is overly optimistic and doesn’t match what real-world measurements and listening tests actually show. Power compression is well documented by Stereophile, AES papers, even Wikipedia mention several dB of loss.

Not exactly. High efficiency speakers usually preserve both macrodynamics and microdynamics more effectively because they require less power and run cooler. Low efficiency speakers can still deliver good dynamics, if they have proper cooling and sufficient amplifier headroom, although in more controlled and less lively way.
You do realize most domestic listening is done between .5 -5 watts RMS.

The VC situation came about from studio and pro situations. Back in the 70/80’s this was of major concern , (high powered SS amps came of age) we measured , we tested , VC temp vs Freq deviation at
1 watt , 2 , 4, 8,16,32,64, watts RMS full bandwidth sweep from 20-40K ..!

Guess what ..! Time to put away that straw man ..

At very high power levels we had issues with the large woofers ,JBL/Altec/Tannoys et al burning of VC edge, ( High frequency vs mass ) hence why no sensible runs them with 6db xovers in high powered situations, higher order was necessary to prevent this ..!

Tweeters and xovers were also of major concern , burnt any xover resistors lately ?
xover saturation is of a bigger deal than VC temp induced issues .

None of the above really applies to domestic situations, (In absolute not discussing poor designs) its a non starter..!

As to macro and micro dynamics , high sensitivity horns speakers , do not do micro dynamics very well , macro yes , sensitivity usually takes a beating when attempting a properly balanced full bandwidth loudspeaker system , unless being actively done with multiple amplifications which brings another set of issues to the table..

IMO most of the issues being discussed is mostly from woefully underpowered loudspeaker systems and nothing to do with VC induced temp issues ..!
 
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I conceded that the sound in person may be great. The video does not reflect that, emphatic protestations notwithstanding.

The video too, it’s one of the best videos I have heard and it clearly shows how good it is. If you can’t hear it, you can’t, comparing videos to files and real
 
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The problem with that argument is that it’s just a theoretical model. it means the author did not perform actual measurements on a real loudspeaker. Instead, he relied on a mathematical model and computer simulation, using assumptions such as the thermal capacity and mass of the voice coil, the cooling time constant, and the applied power. From this, he concluded that voice coil heating does not cause dynamic compression. The issue is that such a model only reflects idealized and simplified conditions, not the realities of loudspeaker use, things like imperfect cooling, airflow variations, mechanical limits, or very high SPL. In other words, it’s an analysis on paper, not real-world testing. That’s why the claim is overly optimistic and doesn’t match what real-world measurements and listening tests actually show. Power compression is well documented by Stereophile, AES papers, even Wikipedia mention several dB of loss.

Right.

Yeah, no....

The Wikipedia link that you cite says:

In a loudspeaker, power compression or thermal compression is a loss of efficiency observed as the voice coil heats up under operation, increasing the DC resistance of the voice coil and decreasing the effective available power of the audio amplifier. A loudspeaker that becomes hot from use may not produce as much sound pressure level as when it is cold.[1][2] The problem is much greater for hard-driven professional concert systems than it is for loudspeakers in the home, where it is rarely seen.[3].

Quotation [3] is the Stereophile article that you linked to. This article says, on page 2:

The results, shown in figs. 3 and 4, came as something of a surprise. Despite what rates as a high playback level for me and, I imagine, most Stereophile readers, I had anticipated there being only modest increases in voice-coil resistance. But the increases were even less than I'd expected.

[...]
More realistically, on the wider-dynamic-range material I more usually listen to, and at my habitual replay levels, the rise in voice-coil temperature and the concomitant thermal compression will be lower still. So I strongly suspect that, for most hi-fi users—those who don't habitually wind the volume control to its highest position and indulge in PA listening levels—thermal compression is a paper tiger.

[...]
Right now, the prospect of thermal compression in my listening-room loudspeakers causes me no lost sleep whatsoever.


***

So there you have it. Your citations in favor of your argument turn out to be fuel for the opposite argument, that thermal compression in domestic systems is mostly a non-issue.
 
Here is a quite thorough technical paper that questions the effect of voice coil heating on dynamic compression:

(If you don't want to read the whole thing, jump to the last few graphs and conclusion at the end of the paper.)

The findings correlate with my experience that you can find very dynamic sounding speakers below 95 dB sensitivity (or any arbitrary sensitivity cut-off you like), provided you have sufficient amplifier power.
Sorry Al, not so simple. Here is a paper from B&O that shows their woofer needs compensation for thermal effects, although I am dubious about this solution of pouring more power because it is a feedback loop: mir power = more heat = more compression.



Klippel also has a rather complex paper that shows there are significant effects and that a non-linear model needs to be used.




The problem is also frequency dependent and each driver will respond differently. This messes up the crossover points and the speaker starts to sound quite different. The less heating the more consistent the speaker will sound over a wide SPL range.
 

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