What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[microstrip]

I agree. Resolution is very comprehensive and holistic, and it is about much more than just detail.

Yes, it is true.

This is why having the largest selection of potential amplifiers as possible is important.

I do not see why. As long as there are plenty of possible choices, why "the largest selection" matters?

And that usually means more efficient and easier to drive speakers. It is the pairing that makes the presentation and lasting impression.

Only if you need the "largest" ...

Take the three speakers in the thread title and other possible contenders and compare them to each other with different amplifiers. The preferred speaker will surely depend on which amplifier is chosen.

And the preferred amplifier will depend on the speaker. It is an hobby of synergy and matching, known since long. IMO the main problem in the choice is that there are currently too many excellent products ...

 

[LL21]

Sounds like in a more restrictive way to me. Greater dynamics is a sign of higher resolution, not so much of detail but of scaling both at high and low levels, which more important for realism.

Only restrictive if the amp is not able to drive it effortlessly which today with the Robert Kodas, we easily can. Furthermore, I found that the easy-to-drive X1s may have had that easy to create dynamic envelope, but it came with a price too which was that it lost signal thru the noise of the actual speaker itself. The XLF appears to send thru a lot more of the original signal if that makes any sense.

 

[Amir]

Anybody listened to Audiopax M100 (100w Single Ended Triode in A1) with old big Wilsons?

 

[LL21]

Anybody listened to Audiopax M100 (100w Single Ended Triode in A1) with old big Wilsons?

That would definitely be fun. I have to say having heard Wilsons over the last 15 years, they do enjoy unbridled power. I also respect that many prefer the purity of sound that comes from super high quality lower powered amps.

Naturally, if you can have a mixture of both that suits one's tastes best, that gives the ability to really allow the Wilsons to race ahead with power and at the same time deliver nuance and organic qualities.

I have not heard the big Wilsons with the Lamms which I know are a well-regarded combination, nor with your Audiopax 100W Single Ended Triodes which no doubt have their own magic with Wilsons.

What I do know is that the Robert Kodas have 235 watts of pure Class A power designed by someone who spent years training under Kondo in Japan, and it allows the Wilsons to race ahead during large-scale orchestral and soundtracks...or a lot of the deep house music we also play...while enabling EST 30 (jazz ensemble very well recorded) or Glenn Gould Goldberg variations to play with a level of nuance and insight I have not heard before from the XLFs.

In many respects, I have always respected Steve Williams' "bury me with the Lamm ML3 References' which he adheres to even today with his next speaker choice...and thus the Zellaton Ultras. I cannot say whether the Robert Kodas will be that same level of 'once and done' for me...but it would not surprise me if they were.

 

[microstrip]

(...) In many respects, I have always respected Steve Williams' "bury me with the Lamm ML3 References' which he adheres to even today with his next speaker choice...and thus the Zellaton Ultras. I cannot say whether the Robert Kodas will be that same level of 'once and done' for me...but it would not surprise me if they were.

Well, we would have to analyze what is meant by "bury me with" and particularly what motivates people to say it . Although I appreciate gear, I do not have an emotional connection with it - if at any moment I find something that can make my music more enjoyable and/or I like better I will happily change, within financial and logistic constraints, surely.

If at any moment my audiophile flame extinguishes, or for example another hobby completely replaces this one, I will not keep my system as it is now - I will sell it and look for something more reasonable, that keeps the music flowing. IMO people are not in the high-end just for the music, it is also for the gear.

 

[LL21]

Well, we would have to analyze what is meant by "bury me with" and particularly what motivates people to say it . Although I appreciate gear, I do not have an emotional connection with it - if at any moment I find something that can make my music more enjoyable and/or I like better I will happily change, within financial and logistic constraints, surely.

If at any moment my audiophile flame extinguishes, or for example another hobby completely replaces this one, I will not keep my system as it is now - I will sell it and look for something more reasonable, that keeps the music flowing. IMO people are not in the high-end just for the music, it is also for the gear.

I think Steve is basically saying he will not change his amplification...and to be fair, he has never waivered from that position, and I respect his position. I dont think he meant anything more than that.

I have only had the Robert Kodas for around 3-4 years...but interestingly, it was a replacement of the other long-term (10-12 years) of pure Class A SS from Gryphon. And I have no desire to look elsewhere either and could well see that remaining for quite some time even as I (after 15 years) continue to think about staying with the XLF or moving to other speakers (even horns like AG Trio G3s).

 

[PeterA]

I think Steve is basically saying he will not change his amplification...and to be fair, he has never waivered from that position, and I respect his position. I dont think he meant anything more than that.

Exactly.

 

[morricab]

I think Steve is basically saying he will not change his amplification...and to be fair, he has never waivered from that position, and I respect his position. I dont think he meant anything more than that.

I have only had the Robert Kodas for around 3-4 years...but interestingly, it was a replacement of the other long-term (10-12 years) of pure Class A SS from Gryphon. And I have no desire to look elsewhere either and could well see that remaining for quite some time even as I (after 15 years) continue to think about staying with the XLF or moving to other speakers (even horns like AG Trio G3s).

If you move to horns I predict your current amps won’t be ideal…

 

[LL21]

If you move to horns I predict your current amps won’t be ideal…

Could well be. At the moment, there are a few AG Trio G3 owners...with some pretty powerful SS amps...SBNX and Jacob Heilbrunn use CH 10 and Dartzeel 468 monos respectively. They are the only horns that have captivated me to date. I know that AG is not every horn lover's cup of tea, though I have been told the G3 series (Mezzo G3 and AG Trio G3) are meaningfully different and better than their predecessors.

And further at the moment, I really like the combination of big Wilsons with the big Robert Kodas and despite really liking the AG Trios...do not see them in the near future.

If I do start to look at horns seriously or different speakers of any kind, I will likely come back to WBF to speak with you and a few others more in-depth. For the moment, I am starting to poke around just to ensure I know what I would look at more seriously in the future.

 

[adyc]

Could well be. At the moment, there are a few AG Trio G3 owners...with some pretty powerful SS amps...SBNX and Jacob Heilbrunn use CH 10 and Dartzeel 468 monos respectively. They are the only horns that have captivated me to date. I know that AG is not every horn lover's cup of tea, though I have been told the G3 series (Mezzo G3 and AG Trio G3) are meaningfully different and better than their predecessors.

And further at the moment, I really like the combination of big Wilsons with the big Robert Kodas and despite really liking the AG Trios...do not see them in the near future.

If I do start to look at horns seriously or different speakers of any kind, I will likely come back to WBF to speak with you and a few others more in-depth. For the moment, I am starting to poke around just to ensure I know what I would look at more seriously in the future.

I think snbx is using itron.

 

[LL21]

I think snbx is using itron.

You're right...he is using the CH L10 Preamp, but now is using the iTron SS amplifier.

 

[microstrip]

I think Steve is basically saying he will not change his amplification...and to be fair, he has never waivered from that position, and I respect his position. I dont think he meant anything more than that.

Surely. A position we should respect. But we can ask why he says he will never change. I know why I say I can't say I will not change ...

I have only had the Robert Kodas for around 3-4 years...but interestingly, it was a replacement of the other long-term (10-12 years) of pure Class A SS from Gryphon. And I have no desire to look elsewhere either and could well see that remaining for quite some time even as I (after 15 years) continue to think about staying with the XLF or moving to other speakers (even horns like AG Trio G3s).

Curiously, having listened to the both excellent Koda's and Trio G3 in separate systems several times, and surely influenced by what I read, I would not bet in such pairing. Too much direct sound and detail for me.

Anyway, I appreciated the Trio G3, but not enough to question my long time preference for the XLF. No doubt the Trio G3 at very loud levels (around 110 dB peak) can sound more realistic with rock, but I never listen in my system at such levels - sorry, I don't go to stadium rock concerts and don't want to bring them in my listening room.

 

[mtemur]

and for all you horn lovers a FMA XS2C with FMA amps /phono , smokes any Horn set up by a large margin incl those Sibatone / Old western electric horns

Bold words.

How many Western Electric horn speakers have you listened to?
Is it just limited to the Sibatone room at the Munich show?

When the setup and the choice of WE horn are right, the sound is magical.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Bold words.

How many Western Electric horn speakers have you listened to?
Is it just limited to the Sibatone room at the Munich show?

When the setup and the choice of WE horn are right, the sound is magical.

Im only speaking for myself .
What you like is your problem.

Its just a reaction to the declaration that Sets / Horns somehow represent" Natural " sound.

 

[mtemur]

Im only speaking for myself .
What you like is your problem.

Its just a reaction to the declaration that Sets / Horns somehow represent" Natural " sound.

What I like is my choice, and that’s not called a “problem”.

I’m not a horn person; I prefer the Kharma Exquisite series—not the Veyron or the Elegance, but especially the Exquisite. I also like Estelon and other modern designs when they’re done properly. On the other hand, I’ve experienced how good and lifelike WE horns can sound when image size and other factors are done correctly.

 

[LL21]

Surely. A position we should respect. But we can ask why he says he will never change. I know why I say I can't say I will not change ...



Curiously, having listened to the both excellent Koda's and Trio G3 in separate systems several times, and surely influenced by what I read, I would not bet in such pairing. Too much direct sound and detail for me.

Anyway, I appreciated the Trio G3, but not enough to question my long time preference for the XLF. No doubt the Trio G3 at very loud levels (around 110 dB peak) can sound more realistic with rock, but I never listen in my system at such levels - sorry, I don't go to stadium rock concerts and don't want to bring them in my listening room.

Hi Micro,

Thank you. I have always respected the level of care combined with technical knowledge you possess through committed reading and learning. I was intuitively very impressed with what I heard...Emm MTRX Ref Monos combined with AG Trio G3s...a combination I would never have recommended as sensible. My instinct originally said the combinations of the Trio G3 (of which I have read about a few) with the Kondo Ongaku seemed like an ideal pairing which of course is low-powered SET.

At the same time, with Jacob Heilbrunn (and even Roy Gregory) being open to larger, more powerful amps driving these highly sensitive speakers, I remain open minded as to the right combination. Given how unusual natural, fluid the Robert Kodas are (preamp to preamp, I came from CJ GAT 2 and years ago CJ amps before turning to Gryphon amps), I feel the amps are in the same sound-category class...which could mate well with certain horns. We may never find out! But having spoken with Robert Koch about it, he was entirely supportive when I asked about the unusually high sensitivity and different ohm loading.

Setting all of that aside, regarding your comments about the Trio G3 being LOUD, I will say that at room filling but not particularly loud levels, the AG Trio was entirely in control in a room that was (for a listening room) massive...at least 20m x 15m x 4m or so. Effortless jazz without force or blare. But it did have a tendency in the treble to be harder than I prefer, and I asked about that...the dealer did admit the Trio G3s are extremely hard to set up well because they are so exacting.

My conclusion was that if I ever got serious, I absolutely would want to spend real time with them and speak in depth with a lot of people about set up and particularly in our room before ever going through with it. My instinct says they are capable of magic.

And in the meantime, I (like you...and once again soon to be!) enjoy the XLFs tremendously having come from the original X1s and decided purposely to skip over multiple opportunities to go with the X2 Series 1 and Series 2. For me, only the Rockport Arrakis is completely and wholly superior. Even the mighty Genesis 1s (older pair) with which I was so impressed for many reasons, did not have perfect bass response the way I would want it.

 

[LL21]

What I like is my choice, and that’s not called a “problem”.

I’m not a horn person; I prefer the Kharma Exquisite series—not the Veyron or the Elegance, but especially the Exquisite. I also like Estelon and other modern designs when they’re done properly. On the other hand, I’ve experienced how good and lifelike WE horns can sound when image size and other factors are done correctly.

Fascinating...would love to get your thoughts on a few speakers if you have heard them...nearly all of which either used to still work with Accuton: Kharma (of old), Tidal, Marten, Estelon, Avalon and Evolution Acoustics.

All of these use Accuton ceramic, aluminum sandwich or diamond drivers. Apparently, measure exceptionally well, but do have awkward break up characteristics which some have attributed to a slightly whitish sound.

Do you have any thoughts on any of these speakers and this 'generalization' I have heard? While I do like the AG Trio G3s, they are enormous on the floor area when mated with the basshorns...whereas all of the above apparently bear much of the alacrity that panels/horns do well...but when designed well, also possess the bass power that cones do well in the lower bass.

 

[microstrip]

Hi Micro,

Thank you. I have always respected the level of care combined with technical knowledge you possess through committed reading and learning. I was intuitively very impressed with what I heard...Emm MTRX Ref Monos combined with AG Trio G3s...a combination I would never have recommended as sensible. My instinct originally said the combinations of the Trio G3 (of which I have read about a few) with the Kondo Ongaku seemed like an ideal pairing which of course is low-powered SET.

In fact, I disliked a Trio G3 - Kondo's system in a large room - but it was a show demo, so it is not relevant. I only consider relevant show positives.

At the same time, with Jacob Heilbrunn (and even Roy Gregory) being open to larger, more powerful amps driving these highly sensitive speakers, I remain open minded as to the right combination. Given how unusual natural, fluid the Robert Kodas are (preamp to preamp, I came from CJ GAT 2 and years ago CJ amps before turning to Gryphon amps), I feel the amps are in the same sound-category class...which could mate well with certain horns. We may never find out! But having spoken with Robert Koch about it, he was entirely supportive when I asked about the unusually high sensitivity and different ohm loading.

Yes, the only way of knowing is trying.

Setting all of that aside, regarding your comments about the Trio G3 being LOUD, I will say that at room filling but not particularly loud levels, the AG Trio was entirely in control in a room that was (for a listening room) massive...at least 20m x 15m x 4m or so. Effortless jazz without force or blare. But it did have a tendency in the treble to be harder than I prefer, and I asked about that...the dealer did admit the Trio G3s are extremely hard to set up well because they are so exacting.

In my experience these fantastic sessions in gymnasium sized very large rooms - you are addressing 300 square meters - are not relevant to smaller, reasonable sized 50 -60 square meter rooms. The whole acoustic parameters are different. I also went through a few similar memorable sessions, one of the more impressive being the old B&W Nautilus driven by four pairs of stereo Krell's playing Haendel Music for the Royal Fireworks in a ball room at realistic levels. But IMO this not "domestic" high-end ...

My conclusion was that if I ever got serious, I absolutely would want to spend real time with them and speak in depth with a lot of people about set up and particularly in our room before ever going through with it. My instinct says they are capable of magic.

I could say the same about a lot of speakers ... But I prefer to not get "serious" ...

And in the meantime, I (like you...and once again soon to be!) enjoy the XLFs tremendously having come from the original X1s and decided purposely to skip over multiple opportunities to go with the X2 Series 1 and Series 2. For me, only the Rockport Arrakis is completely and wholly superior. Even the mighty Genesis 1s (older pair) with which I was so impressed for many reasons, did not have perfect bass response the way I would want it.

Well, the WAMM with WAMM Master Subsonic by far eclipsed all else I have listened. It was a great week. But they did not embarrass the XLFs, that I had listened many times in the same room.

 

[LL21]

In fact, I disliked a Trio G3 - Kondo's system in a large room - but it was a show demo, so it is not relevant. I only consider relevant show positives.



Yes, the only way of knowing is trying.



In my experience these fantastic sessions in gymnasium sized very large rooms - you are addressing 300 square meters - are not relevant to smaller, reasonable sized 50 -60 square meter rooms. The whole acoustic parameters are different. I also went through a few similar memorable sessions, one of the more impressive being the old B&W Nautilus driven by four pairs of stereo Krell's playing Haendel Music for the Royal Fireworks in a ball room at realistic levels. But IMO this not "domestic" high-end ...



I could say the same about a lot of speakers ... But I prefer to not get "serious" ...


Well, the WAMM with WAMM Master Subsonic by far eclipsed all else I have listened. It was a great week. But they did not embarrass the XLFs, that I had listened many times in the same room.

Thank you! I enjoy reading and learning from a few key voices at WBF, and yours is one of them particularly how well you know the big Wilsons. I would love to include the WAMMs in the mix given how much I like the XLF and the original X1s...not least due to its giant scale as I am told combined with what is still an incredibly efficient footprint. Of course, then we have to think about cost!

As for AG Trio G3s...each person has individual taste...but in some respects like Wilsons which are so adjustable in their design that the sound quality is almost more about the individual doing the setup than the speaker, I suspect the same is also true of the AG Trio G3. My limited experience with them revealed a uniquely precise and exacting quality.

 

[microstrip]

(...) As for AG Trio G3s...each person has individual taste...but in some respects like Wilsons which are so adjustable in their design that the sound quality is almost more about the individual doing the setup than the speaker, I suspect the same is also true of the AG Trio G3. My limited experience with them revealed a uniquely precise and exacting quality.

Yes, it seems both XLFs and Trios G3's have great adjustability and are critical of setup. As you I praise the ability of playing also at low levels, and the low level performance of the XLF's is a strong factor for me - "Unlike the bass output of most large speakers, which tends to soften and lose shape at low SPLs, the ca 94dB-sensitive Alexandria could be played at whisper levels with no loss of bass structure or rhythmic integrity. The cleanness and precision of the XLF's ability to start and stop at low frequencies and low SPLs was unique in my experience." (quoting M. Fremer XLF review, he says it much better than me. ) Both the Soundlab's and the Aida's I am now listening do not equal this XLF resolving ability at low levels.

The audiophile addiction is lead by differences and change. Even if we have the "best" we can always find something different and dream ...