What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[mtemur]

Fascinating...would love to get your thoughts on a few speakers if you have heard them...nearly all of which either used to still work with Accuton: Kharma (of old), Tidal, Marten, Estelon, Avalon and Evolution Acoustics.

All of these use Accuton ceramic, aluminum sandwich or diamond drivers. Apparently, measure exceptionally well, but do have awkward break up characteristics which some have attributed to a slightly whitish sound.

Do you have any thoughts on any of these speakers and this 'generalization' I have heard? While I do like the AG Trio G3s, they are enormous on the floor area when mated with the basshorns...whereas all of the above apparently bear much of the alacrity that panels/horns do well...but when designed well, also possess the bass power that cones do well in the lower bass.

Accuton drivers are impressive, but in my opinion, what truly makes a speaker excellent is the cabinet. The latest iterations from Marten, Tidal, and Avalon are very good, Estelon is even better, and Kharma stands out as the best among them. Creating a completely inert cabinet with the proper acoustic shape is what separates these brands, in my view. However, they are all low-impedance designs with relatively low sensitivity.

I also listened to the new AG Trios, and I think they sound very good—much better than the old Trios. The improvement over the previous model is significant—so is the price.

 

[LL21]

Yes, it seems both XLFs and Trios G3's have great adjustability and are critical of setup. As you I praise the ability of playing also at low levels, and the low level performance of the XLF's is a strong factor for me - "Unlike the bass output of most large speakers, which tends to soften and lose shape at low SPLs, the ca 94dB-sensitive Alexandria could be played at whisper levels with no loss of bass structure or rhythmic integrity. The cleanness and precision of the XLF's ability to start and stop at low frequencies and low SPLs was unique in my experience." (quoting M. Fremer XLF review, he says it much better than me. ) Both the Soundlab's and the Aida's I am now listening do not equal this XLF resolving ability at low levels.

The audiophile addiction is lead by differences and change. Even if we have the "best" we can always find something different and dream ...

That is a very good point and something I would want to investigate if ever I were to look at the AG seriously. We played at around 85db...but 85db at our listening position which must have been 12m-15m back from the speakers. Would be interesting as you say to hear it at 45db or 50db or even less where we listen regularly and very happily at 50db. Listening to Hamilton now...avg 60db.

 

[LL21]

Accuton drivers are impressive, but in my opinion, what truly makes a speaker excellent is the cabinet. The latest iterations from Marten, Tidal, and Avalon are very good, Estelon is even better, and Kharma stands out as the best among them. Creating a completely inert cabinet with the proper acoustic shape is what separates these brands, in my view. However, they are all low-impedance designs with relatively low sensitivity.

I also listened to the new AG Trios, and I think they sound very good—much better than the old Trios. The improvement over the previous model is significant—so is the price.

Thank you. I have heard people say that over time you can hear the signature of the Accutons which is somehow related to their breakup nature which not every design can fully account for (ie, mask/avoid). I intend to hear them at some point, but just doing some learning right now from those with experience.

I know Mike Lavigne's Evolution Acoustics MM7s also use Accuton, and I dont think I have ever heard anyone who has ever heard it ever say anything other than complete superlatives...which means something to me about what you are saying.

And BTW, good to know about the AG Trio G3s vs their predecessors (which I have read about but never heard). I think I heard an Uno many many years ago but did not come away with a particularly memorable impression.

 

[Amir]

Dave Wilson had some solidstate amplifiers (Ayre monoblock, Parasound and D'Agostino) in his showroom and also in some audio shows but (maybe I am wrong) those solidstate amplifiers were used for powering subwoofers not main towers.
Dave Wilson mainly used VTL (tube amplification) for powering big Wilsons.

I listened to big Wilsons with many different amplifiers but finally I convinced big wilsons are better with tubes

 

[morricab]

Dave Wilson had some solidstate amplifiers (Ayre monoblock, Parasound and D'Agostino) in his showroom and also in some audio shows but (maybe I am wrong) those solidstate amplifiers were used for powering subwoofers not main towers.
Dave Wilson mainly used VTL (tube amplification) for powering big Wilsons.

I listened to big Wilsons with many different amplifiers but finally I convinced big wilsons are better with tubes

The sound with VTL at Munich this year was pretty decent...better than a lot of rooms but not in the top echelon.

 

[andromedaaudio]

For me it was completely the opposite .
I didnt like it this year .
.
I like the 6550 tubes not KT 150 / 170.


.

 

[Amir]

The sound with VTL at Munich this year was pretty decent...better than a lot of rooms but not in the top echelon.

Dave Wilson in 2013 : https://www.stereophile.com/content/vtlwilsondcs151jas-equal-best-sound-rmaf

"Wired with Transparent cables, the extreme audio system in the large room at the Denver Tech Center Hyatt—dCS Vivaldi digital source, VTL TL7.5 III preamp, VTL Siegfried power amps, Wilson Alexandria XLF speakers driven full-range and twin Thor's Hammer subwoofers driven by 250Wpc Parasound Halo A 21 amplifiers below 38Hz"

 

[Amir]

I have heard people say that over time you can hear the signature of the Accutons which is somehow related to their breakup nature which not every design can fully account for (ie, mask/avoid). I intend to hear them at some point, but just doing some learning right now from those with experience.

I listened to ceramic midrange of old Kharma midi-exquisite around 2010 (Kharma efficiency was higher those days) and it was good with Vitus solidstate push-pull Class A amplification.
I have no idea about Ceramic drivers but I think we should separate ceramic tweeter and ceramic midrange and ceramic bass drivers. it seems there are some problems that designer should solve but finally I do not think about that and my judgment based on my music listening.

 

[LL21]

I listened to ceramic midrange of old Kharma midi-exquisite around 2010 (Kharma efficiency was higher those days) and it was good with Vitus solidstate push-pull Class A amplification.
I have no idea about Ceramic drivers but I think we should separate ceramic tweeter and ceramic midrange and ceramic bass drivers. it seems there are some problems that designer should solve but finally I do not think about that and my judgment based on my music listening.

Thank you! Yes primarily focused on how you perceived the Accuton Ceramic midranges. (I think most designers I am reading about use their Aluminum bass drivers now, and tweeters had also changed materials.)

Did you remember them to be very natural but also capable of exceptional micro and macro dynamic expression?

 

[morricab]

Thank you! Yes primarily focused on how you perceived the Accuton Ceramic midranges. (I think most designers I am reading about use their Aluminum bass drivers now, and tweeters had also changed materials.)

Did you remember them to be very natural but also capable of exceptional micro and macro dynamic expression?

None of the above Lloyd.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Yes primarily focused on how you perceived the Accuton Ceramic midranges.

...I find the Accuton ceramic drivers used in my Von Schweikert speakers very enjoyable. They use it for mid and low-range applications in the VR and Ultra ranges.

 

[Amir]

Thank you! Yes primarily focused on how you perceived the Accuton Ceramic midranges. (I think most designers I am reading about use their Aluminum bass drivers now, and tweeters had also changed materials.)

Did you remember them to be very natural but also capable of exceptional micro and macro dynamic expression?

Those days (around 2010) In dynamics big Wilsons and Kharma were good, old big Wilsons were better than kharma.

Your question about “natural midrange” is hard to answer. Both Kharma and Wilsons were semi ok but I think vintage speakers like Tannoy Red are more natural.

 

[LL21]

Thank you! Yes primarily focused on how you perceived the Accuton Ceramic midranges. (I think most designers I am reading about use their Aluminum bass drivers now, and tweeters had also changed materials.)

Did you remember them to be very natural but also capable of exceptional micro and macro dynamic expression?

None of the above Lloyd.

...I find the Accuton ceramic drivers used in my Von Schweikert speakers very enjoyable. They use it for mid and low-range applications in the VR and Ultra ranges.

Thank you both and also look forward to hearing from Amir. As with all things audio, there are differences of excellent opinions. Like many technologies, SET, pure Class A, PCM, DSD, horns, cones, panels...its about implementation and about system.

My gut tells me that providing the designs utilizing Accuton create enough capacity within the speaker to handle major transients and enormous levels of headroom in bass capacity, they could well be an elegant solution space-wise.

I suspect when the cones are driven too hard, they start to show their own intrinsic weaknesses (all technologies have them)...which means one needs to create significant headroom in the overall delivery to avoid this.

 

[LL21]

Those days (around 2010) In dynamics big Wilsons and Kharma were good, old big Wilsons were better than kharma.

Your question about “natural midrange” is hard to answer. Both Kharma and Wilsons were semi ok but I think vintage speakers like Tannoy Red are more natural.

Thank you!

 

[morricab]

Thank you both and also look forward to hearing from Amir. As with all things audio, there are differences of excellent opinions. Like many technologies, SET, pure Class A, PCM, DSD, horns, cones, panels...its about implementation and about system.

My gut tells me that providing the designs utilizing Accuton create enough capacity within the speaker to handle major transients and enormous levels of headroom in bass capacity, they could well be an elegant solution space-wise.

I suspect when the cones are driven too hard, they start to show their own intrinsic weaknesses (all technologies have them)...which means one needs to create significant headroom in the overall delivery to avoid this.

I would argue that big dynamic transients for a ceramic driver are bad because you will get the maximum cone breakup from these drivers when they are being accelerated the most. This is unavoidable and a crossover never removes it. The only sort of solution is to have the crossover very far away from where the breakup begins. I am sure the designers of speakers with these kinds of drivers would beg to differ, however, it is undeniable that they all have a similar family sound. Marten, Tidal, VonS, Estelon etc. all sound very "clean" but not particularly natural. All are on the 'cold' side of the sound spectrum, compared to Wilson, Magico or Stenheim, which use paper, or carbon as driver materials. There are obviously some people who really like this clean, clear but a bit clinical sound compared to a slightly warmer but arguably just as clear sound. I can only tell you which one sounds more like I hear live and it is the latter rather than the former. Wilson, in later speakers, has even gone to a soft dome tweeter, which compared to the Focal Ti tweeter of the past is softer and less aggressive but also arguably less realistic with high percussion and horns.

Personally, I have speakers with Ti compression drivers that have the most realistic treble I think I have ever heard. Those who have heard these speakers at my place all leave with a similar impression...the current speakers with paper cone tweeters are good but not nearly as realistic...nothing else, except perhaps a plasmas tweeter, I have heard is as utterly realistic. The rest of the speaker is very good but not quite up to the treble.

 

[mtemur]

Thank you. I have heard people say that over time you can hear the signature of the Accutons which is somehow related to their breakup nature which not every design can fully account for (ie, mask/avoid). I intend to hear them at some point, but just doing some learning right now from those with experience.

I know Mike Lavigne's Evolution Acoustics MM7s also use Accuton, and I dont think I have ever heard anyone who has ever heard it ever say anything other than complete superlatives...which means something to me about what you are saying.

And BTW, good to know about the AG Trio G3s vs their predecessors (which I have read about but never heard). I think I heard an Uno many many years ago but did not come away with a particularly memorable impression.

I haven’t heard of any acoustic breakup issues with Accuton ceramic drivers. They can extend high in the frequency spectrum without acoustic breakup. If you’re referring to the cones literally breaking apart, yes, that was a problem back in the day—around 2006. Accuton addressed this by redesigning the cones, adding the cutouts at the 9 and 3 o’clock positions. The cracking issue is no longer a concern.


In my opinion, the Accuton ceramic midrange is excellent—probably one of the best midrange drivers available. However, the ceramic tweeter tends to sound harsh, and the ceramic bass driver often comes across as sluggish and lacking proper impact.

 

[Robh3606]

Personally, I have speakers with Ti compression drivers that have the most realistic treble I think I have ever heard.

Your speakers use 475Nd? If so it's coated Ti. Adding Aquaplas like on the SL's diaphragms really helps damp them . Makes a difference.

Rob

 

[LL21]

I would argue that big dynamic transients for a ceramic driver are bad because you will get the maximum cone breakup from these drivers when they are being accelerated the most. This is unavoidable and a crossover never removes it. The only sort of solution is to have the crossover very far away from where the breakup begins. I am sure the designers of speakers with these kinds of drivers would beg to differ, however, it is undeniable that they all have a similar family sound. Marten, Tidal, VonS, Estelon etc. all sound very "clean" but not particularly natural. All are on the 'cold' side of the sound spectrum, compared to Wilson, Magico or Stenheim, which use paper, or carbon as driver materials. There are obviously some people who really like this clean, clear but a bit clinical sound compared to a slightly warmer but arguably just as clear sound. I can only tell you which one sounds more like I hear live and it is the latter rather than the former. Wilson, in later speakers, has even gone to a soft dome tweeter, which compared to the Focal Ti tweeter of the past is softer and less aggressive but also arguably less realistic with high percussion and horns.

Personally, I have speakers with Ti compression drivers that have the most realistic treble I think I have ever heard. Those who have heard these speakers at my place all leave with a similar impression...the current speakers with paper cone tweeters are good but not nearly as realistic...nothing else, except perhaps a plasmas tweeter, I have heard is as utterly realistic. The rest of the speaker is very good but not quite up to the treble.

Hi Morricab,

Thank you...you are one of a few with a lot of live professional classical music experience, a technical knowledge of high end audio and your own passionate tastes about what you like and specifically why.

I hear you on Wilson and personally have always found them to be very very good all around performers, and when done right can be really spectacular.

Regarding the ceramic drivers and transients, since all cones eventually can break up...I would have thought that designing them to operate well below that threshold is the key? As you already know (or could well have guessed) I am not technical person, but with enough cones (rather than just 2-3), I would have thought it allows a speaker to deliver air displacement/volume without pushing any one cone anywhere near its threshold for break up. (I presume that is why the original IRS Infinity V and Genesis 1 each have something 20+ tweeters and 20+ midrange ribbons...because it allows each individual one to do practically nothing...but in combination still deliver a simply enormous amount of stage presence in the room even when portraying an orchestral suite.)

I like the idea that the ceramic (within perhaps a much tighter tolerance than paper or Be/Ti, etc) is exceptionally pistonic and therefore delivering what is coming from the amp. Of course, that is an idea...as with everything, execution is everything. And in the end ultimate end, its all in the listening which I have to go find some time (and some place) to go do.

 

[LL21]

I haven’t heard of any acoustic breakup issues with Accuton ceramic drivers. They can extend high in the frequency spectrum without acoustic breakup. If you’re referring to the cones literally breaking apart, yes, that was a problem back in the day—around 2006. Accuton addressed this by redesigning the cones, adding the cutouts at the 9 and 3 o’clock positions. The cracking issue is no longer a concern.


In my opinion, the Accuton ceramic midrange is excellent—probably one of the best midrange drivers available. However, the ceramic tweeter tends to sound harsh, and the ceramic bass driver often comes across as sluggish and lacking proper impact.

Super helpful! Thank you. Good news about the Ceramic midrange, because that is the one I have been reading up on where certain designs are built around it. Not the tweeter nor the bass drivers.

 

[morricab]

Your speakers use 475Nd? If so it's coated Ti. Adding Aquaplas like on the SL's diaphragms really helps damp them . Makes a difference.

Rob

No, they use the old Beyma CP-350Ti, which hasn't been made in about 25 years. It is very clean at the top end (minimal breakup) and has very low distortion.

https://www.diyparadiso.com/datasheets/speaker/beyma/cp350ti.pdf