Viv Lab Owners

[mtemur]

Spin Doctor #17: Paging Dr. Löfgren, ViV Laboratory's Rigid Float 9ha tonearm

It started one evening when I was killing time watching YouTube videos and stumbled across a 2017 talk given by Jonathan Carr, Lyra's brilliant cartridge designer (footnote 1). After discussing his design and Lyra's manufacturing processes for about 18 minutes, Carr opens the floor to questions...

www.stereophile.com

I read the review on Stereophile. It contains mistakes IMHO and that’s why I sent an e-mail to Stereophile. In short;

I am not sure why this inaccurate information was included in the review. It could have been a direct reference to the manufacturer’s comments, or perhaps it was an oversight in research. Either way, such misinformation is problematic and misleading for readers.

 

[bonzo75]

I read the review on Stereophile. It contains mistakes IMHO and that’s why I sent an e-mail to Stereophile. In short;

I am not sure why this inaccurate information was included in the review. It could have been a direct reference to the manufacturer’s comments, or perhaps it was an oversight in research. Either way, such misinformation is problematic and misleading for readers.

Hi which part of the info are you referring to

 

[mtemur]

Hi which part of the info are you referring to

Almost whole review is full of mistakes, but I addressed skating specifically;

The review suggests that the offset angle is responsible for skating and that by eliminating the offset angle and making the tonearm straight, the ViV Labs arm eliminates the skating force. This is incorrect.

In reality, skating is not caused by the offset angle, and making the tonearm straight does not negate the need for anti-skating. Skating occurs due to overhang or underhung geometry. Specifically, straight, underhung arms like the ViV Labs model switch the direction of the skating force after the null point while regular overhang arms have same direction of skating throughout the record. Unlike regular arms with overhang and offset angles, underhung arms only have one null point. Designing an anti-skating mechanism that compensates for this directional switch after the null point is complex. Perhaps this is why the manufacturer chose not to include an anti-skating mechanism, or they may be unaware of this nuance. Nonetheless, it is incorrect to suggest that anti-skating is redundant for this or any similar arm. It is not negligible either.

IMHO it’s more like a manufacturer’s claim than a review.

 

[Dogberry]

We have a hint that Michael Fremer is getting into underhung arms:

 

[KPC]

I was hoping Sterephile’s M Trei would figure out the ViV Sonic mystery.

 

[Uk Paul / Z:Axis Audio]

Hi, what cart and systems do you have?

Time to investigate why both General and Hiraga like Viv Labs - HIraga is a straight arm no offset guy.

Have heard it sound good with Fuuga on Rue de borgis, and heard it on Monaco Parabolica with Kondo (system in the SET amp owners thread) - couldn't isolate the arm.

Oneo has one on his apogees, General has one with his own cart on Pnoe and Elysiums.

Iirc UK Paul has one.

Who else?

Apparently sounds good with Nasotec swing headshell

I do indeed use the RF7 Ked, and to be honest, I'm not sure I will ever go back to an offset tonearm again. I have used it paired with the Nelson hold headshell, and with the Nasotec swing headshell but have moved on from these to a (imo) better sounding solution.

I have read so much 'hot and cold' over the Viv, (very long discussion on Agon) with owners who have experience are generally full of praise, with many who have not owned or even heard it very active in dismissing it as too fundamentally flawed to be worth the time and effort investigating.

I am however, yet to read a good accurate description of the sonic traits the tracing error results in. And how these may compare to the sonic traits anti skate bias results in. I have my own thoughts, but keen to hear from others from both sides of the discussion.

Just to clarify, the Viv, (along with ALL single point pivoted arms), do encounter a sideways force, culminating in zero at whichever point is selected on set up across the side of the LP. I use 98mm, Viv use 90mm. The force is very low, and the arm gently settles in this zero point, so pulls towards the spindle at the outermost groove, and away from the spindle at the innermost groove to stabilise at this point, at which point it is tangential. To say there is 'no force' at all is incorrect, the force though is considerably less than an offset tonearm.

 

[MrC.]

I do indeed use the RF7 Ked, and to be honest, I'm not sure I will ever go back to an offset tonearm again. I have used it paired with the Nelson hold headshell, and with the Nasotec swing headshell but have moved on from these to a (imo) better sounding solution.

I have read so much 'hot and cold' over the Viv, (very long discussion on Agon) with owners who have experience are generally full of praise, with many who have not owned or even heard it very active in dismissing it as too fundamentally flawed to be worth the time and effort investigating.

I am however, yet to read a good accurate description of the sonic traits the tracing error results in. And how these may compare to the sonic traits anti skate bias results in. I have my own thoughts, but keen to hear from others from both sides of the discussion.

Just to clarify, the Viv, (along with ALL single point pivoted arms), do encounter a sideways force, culminating in zero at whichever point is selected on set up across the side of the LP. I use 98mm, Viv use 90mm. The force is very low, and the arm gently settles in this zero point, so pulls towards the spindle at the outermost groove, and away from the spindle at the innermost groove to stabilise at this point, at which point it is tangential. To say there is 'no force' at all is incorrect, the force though is considerably less than an offset tonearm.

It may be that skating force is more of a negative than we were led to believe. It makes me question if the reason longer arms or tangential arms deliver sonic benefits has more to do with the reduction or dispensation of skating forces than questions of offset or zenith angles.