Visit to Marc C.'s (SpiritOfMusic's) House in England

asiufy

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No, not the current 40.2, but I've heard a previous version, with powerful amps. The designer is the same, so there's little point in listening to stuff I know I don't like.

No speaker is perfect, and my recommendation for AGs was for the specific person/situation (Marc's). I know you also like rock but don't like horns, so I would never suggest something like that to YOUR situation.
 

Ron Resnick

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Marc,

Here is my suggestion, and it will net you money: rewind the timeline back to my visit to your room; keep all of the Stacor platforms; reverse all other changes; sell all tweaks added after my visit (except for front wall acoustic treatment); use sales proceeds to finance small vodka, scotch and red wine selection at the back of your room; have a drink prior to every listening session.
 

DaveyF

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No, not the current 40.2, but I've heard a previous version, with powerful amps. The designer is the same, so there's little point in listening to stuff I know I don't like.

No speaker is perfect, and my recommendation for AGs was for the specific person/situation (Marc's). I know you also like rock but don't like horns, so I would never suggest something like that to YOUR situation.
I think the choice of amps has a lot to do with how these speakers sound. Powerful ss amps wouldn’t be my first choice with 40.2’s. Like many BBC designs, they sound a lot better with low to mid powered tube amps.
However, if you don’t like them, that’s your prerogative... but I still think Marc should check them out.
 

bonzo75

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Marc,

Here is my suggestion, and it will net you money: rewind the timeline back to my visit to your room; keep all of the Stacor platforms; reverse all other changes; sell all tweaks added after my visit (except for front wall acoustic treatment); use sales proceeds to finance small vodka, scotch and red wine selection at the back of your room; have a drink prior to every listening session.

I would just reverse everything and drink to it :p
 

spiritofmusic

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Ron, gonna need a vat of the hard stuff when Brexit happens, forget about just a small drink every listen.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Ked, I always love visiting guys and cooing over their choice of gear.

Barry w his Duos, Z Axis Paul and his Concert Fidelity/ML Spires, Justin and his Duettas, Keith and his Liszts/Bakoons, The General and his, well, everything LOL.

So I look fwds to being envious of something you might own, rather than sighing every time I hear you confirm you don't like or respect my choices.

Walk the walk, talk the talk etc.
Some of us do both.
 
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Ron Resnick

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Ron, gonna need a vat of the hard stuff when Brexit happens, forget about just a small drink every listen.

I know you are kidding, but, even now, instead of focusing on your audiophilia nervosa, you distract yourself with an irrelevancy. f o c u s
 

spiritofmusic

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Ron, I could scrap all my optimisation/tweaks tomorrow if I wanted. But I don't want to.

If it helps, the Mooks are gone. Even they couldn't help my Zus LOL.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Ron, I'm amused you think Brexit is an irrelevancy. But it may be a bit OT.
 

KeithR

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If you want something substantially better than your Zus, then Harbeths are not it. They'll be pretty similar to your Zus, down to their obvious colorations and deficiencies. And they're inefficient to boot.

+1

I can't imagine a more muddled sound than Harbeth w/ SET either. I'm already sleeping just thinking about it :)


Marc,

I think the best thing is to get an in-home demo of another speaker. And you will see how Zu stands up to *any* speaker in your room, mano y mano. Several European brands have been mentioned so pick one from a local dealer to help setting it up in your room to the best of his ability.

This would also take away your analysis paralysis that so often dooms your audiophile expedition. And if you still love your Zus more, then you will have peace of mine to enjoy them.

What bothers me most about the recent exchange in your room is that there were basic elements of sound reproduction that were *clearly missing* which you didn't notice - that means you aren't heading in a good direction. As such, a local dealer would be a tremendous help.

Good luck!
 

Ron Resnick

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bonzo75

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So I look fwds to being envious of something you might own, rather than sighing every time I hear you confirm you don't like or respect my choices.

No Marc, I just sigh at not the same old Zu chat again. Nothing to do with your choices
 

bonzo75

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I know you are kidding, but, even now, instead of focusing on your audiophilia nervosa, you distract yourself with an irrelevancy. f o c u s

Marc is right. Brexit is the most important thing affecting all audiophiles from purchasing power, exchange rate for the EU used market, as well as real estate for the room one is putting the hifi in
 

spiritofmusic

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Ked, it's not me who talks about ditching my choices, it's others. I really would love to not defend my purchases all the time.

I don't see guys here who run thru gear like changing their socks getting criticism for being profligate or not knowing their mind, and yet I attract flak.

Ked, I've asked you a few times to come down, I'd love to have tried to at least showed you some positives, but it hasn't happened in over a year, so I'm going to pass.

And I do respect others feeling that my choices or priorities are poor, but this hobby is like all hobbies, purely subjective. I dont agree w all the criticisms Barry made of my sound. But I respect his opinions, because he has an exemplary sound himself, and he's one for finding solutions.

I've had a pro sound engineer over in the last year, and he loved my sound. Non audiophiles rate my sound. Others are left perplexed or dissatisfied. That's life.

I'm content that I've chosen gear that talks to me in the areas of musical reproduction that I value most, have taken a major punt on an expensive room that has really checked out, and have evolved twds a much better sound than I had in London w the same core components.

It was instructional that Barry got me reintroducing the acoustic panels in my room, and finally I've got the tubes that bring out the best in my preamp. I'm not so egotistical to deny the fact that I could thus have been getting more from my system on the basis of ongoing eeking out of impvts over a long time period.

Someone like User211 has had his Graz Apogee Duettas for a considerable time, and is continually modding them, and gets better and better results. Good luck to him, I say.

And since Barry left, I've really got (yes, really, yet again LOL) more by a dramatic alteration in bringing my subs much more to the fore (70Hz rather than 40Hz crossover).

I actually rather like my journey, and my tailoring of my sound over time.

But yes, it would be so much easier not to have spent on my system changes, and gone the easy route of powerhouse SS and audiophile favourite multi driver box spkr like Magico.
 
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morricab

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Ked, it's not me who talks about ditching my choices, it's others. I really would love to not defend my purchases all the time.

I don't see guys here who run thru gear like changing their socks getting criticism for bring profligate or not knowing their mind, and yet I attract flak.

Ked, I've asked you a few times to come down, I'd love to have tried to at least showed you some positives, but it hasn't happened in over a year, so I'm going to pass.

And I do respect others feeling that my choices or priorities are poor, but this hobby is like all hobbies, purely subjective.

I've had a pro sound engineer over in the last year, and he loved my sound. Others are left perplexed or dissatisfied. That's life.

I'm content that I've chosen gear that talks to me in the areas of musical reproduction that I value most, have taken a major punt on an expensive room that has really checked out, and have evolved twds a much better sound than I had in London w the same core components.

It was instructional that Barry got me reintroducing the acoustic panels in my room, and finally I've got the tubes that bring out the best in my preamp. I'm not so egotistical to deny the fact that I could thus have been getting more from my system.

And since Barry left, I've really got (yes, really, yet again LOL) more by a dramatic alteration in bringing my subs much more to the fore (70Hz rather than 40Hz crossover).

I actually rather like my journey, and my tailoring of my sound over time.

But yes, it would be so much easier not to have spent on my system changes, and gone the easy route of powerhouse SS and audiophile favourite multi driver box spkr like Magico.
Have you thought seriously about diffusion rather than absorptive panels? Or do you have a mix? I generally find diffusion of things like sidewall reflections to work better than damping.
 

spiritofmusic

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Brad, I'm thinking of treatments that mix the two.

GIK absorption panels w integral scatter plates, ASC tube traps, Acustica Applicata Daads.

And now I've gone for a serious upping in deep bass output, absorption seems to be critical to getting that thump in the chest and true kick drum/orchestral bass drum and tympani impact, w no smearing of mids or reduction in agility and impact.
 

the sound of Tao

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I think the choice of amps has a lot to do with how these speakers sound. Powerful ss amps wouldn’t be my first choice with 40.2’s. Like many BBC designs, they sound a lot better with low to mid powered tube amps.
However, if you don’t like them, that’s your prerogative... but I still think Marc should check them out.

As a guy who has 40.2s, has owned 30.1s, has had extensive listening time in my home with all the current Harbeths I can’t really agree Davey but as always this is really just about preferences so it’s all relative. I really like quite a few of the speakers you favour so this is just a divergence in what’s best for driving harbys.

I’d probably be more like Keith and fall asleep with 40.2s on low powered SET, and I have a 50 watt SET amp with iron soo big even Ked’s powerlifting girlfriend might struggle to bench press it... sure it plays the 40.2s and does many fab things but IME it’s just not the 40.2s at their best.

I love SET, and get the whole thing of how some low powered valves amps drive speakers well beyond the appearance of the numbers but for me this is more about matching characteristics of amps to speakers.

Most Harbeth owners I’ve ever read on the subject of amp matching (including Alan Shaw the designer of them who almost verges on amp agnostic) usually then recommend 50 watts minimum as a starting point for them. So while they are a reasonably easy 6 ohm they have just simply relatively low efficiency.

I’ve tried the 40.2s, 30.2 and SLH5+ with a range of valve and SS amps. With 24 watt 300B PSE monos it sounded rich and lush but just ran out of breath on bigger scale and definitely didn’t play rock convincingly the way they certainly can when hooked up to some larger push pull valve or SS amps.

In valves I’d go KT150 push pull, Jadis, Audio Research, Allnic, Octave etc and for SS just some really good larger current drive wide bandwidth types of amps with then a valve pre up front can be very nice.

They are a box speaker that has often been favourably compared to Quads in terms of their midrange and have a tone wood characteristic that for them to be making magic mids doesn’t really need any added euphonics to naturally sound rich... but they do really seem to benefit from some considerable headroom to sound effortless and that puts some welly and confidence into their style.

Of all the harbys the 40.2s have both the balance and the extension to do any music type justice (more so than the smaller harbys) and also really enjoy the kind of amps that are relatively neutral and wide bandwidth and effortless in power delivery with enough watts to get them properly going.

Their nature is lovely and kind to the music.

I love them and the 40.2s and 30.1s have similar natures but just a slightly different mix of strengths but I’m not even sure either would spring to mind as a suggestion for Marc given their possibly less than ideal matching with Marc’s preferred amps.

As an alternative I’d have thought maybe DeVore might be closer to the mark for Marc but then speakers are just such personal choices so who knows really, only Marc will be able to tell if and after he’s heard them.

I had DeVore 0/96s on loan for a month with the 845 300B tank like magic of a Line Magentic 24 watt 219ia and that was indeed a very lovely combo. Either speaker brand might potentially be of interest for Marc but who knows really? It’s just that he might possibly get the better out of Devores with his current system but with the 40.2s and his music preferences and particular amp choice that maybe he’ll get some very lush and lovely sounds but presenting the 40.2s just as a tad on sleepier side of their spectrum. They do grace easy but pairing them with an amp with more of a touch of robust grunge they can also be good for some proper prog rock soul.
 
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Barry2013

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IMHO

There is a man in a chapel
Who seeks to find the right way
We try and we try to show him the right way
From Asia,America and Australia
The cream of the audiophile world labour
But alas all is in vain
Methinks the answer is easy
It's only an indulgent journey
 
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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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First a poem.

Who's next going to write me a song, to lullaby me to sleep?
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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I ag
As a guy who has 40.2s, has owned 30.1s, has had extensive listening time in my home with all the current Harbeths I can’t really agree Davey but as always this is really just about preferences so it’s all relative. I really like quite a few of the speakers you favour so this is just a divergence in what’s best for driving harbys.

I’d probably be more like Keith and fall asleep with 40.2s on low powered SET, and I have a 50 watt SET amp with iron soo big even Ked’s powerlifting girlfriend might struggle to bench press it... sure it plays the 40.2s and does many fab things but IME it’s just not the 40.2s at their best.

I love SET, and get the whole thing of how some low powered valves amps drive speakers well beyond the appearance of the numbers but for me this is more about matching characteristics of amps to speakers.

Most Harbeth owners I’ve ever read on the subject of amp matching (including Alan Shaw the designer of them who almost verges on amp agnostic) usually then recommend 50 watts minimum as a starting point for them. So while they are a reasonably easy 6 ohm they have just simply relatively low efficiency.

I’ve tried the 40.2s, 30.2 and SLH5+ with a range of valve and SS amps. With 24 watt 300B PSE monos it sounded rich and lush but just ran out of breath on bigger scale and definitely didn’t play rock convincingly the way they certainly can when hooked up to some larger push pull valve or SS amps.

In valves I’d go KT150 push pull, Jadis, Audio Research, Allnic, Octave etc and for SS just some really good larger current drive wide bandwidth types of amps with then a valve pre up front can be very nice.

They are a box speaker that has often been favourably compared to Quads in terms of their midrange and have a tone wood characteristic that for them to be making magic mids doesn’t really need any added euphonics to naturally sound rich... but they do really seem to benefit from some considerable headroom to sound effortless and that puts some welly and confidence into their style.

Of all the harbys the 40.2s have both the balance and the extension to do any music type justice (more so than the smaller harbys) and also really enjoy the kind of amps that are relatively neutral and wide bandwidth and effortless in power delivery with enough watts to get them properly going.

Their nature is lovely and kind to the music.

I love them and the 40.2s and 30.1s have similar natures but just a slightly different mix of strengths but I’m not even sure either would spring to mind as a suggestion for Marc given their possibly less than ideal matching with Marc’s preferred amps.

As an alternative I’d have thought maybe DeVore might be closer to the mark for Marc but then speakers are just such personal choices so who knows really, only Marc will be able to tell if and after he’s heard them.

I had DeVore 0/96s on loan for a month with the 845 300B tank like magic of a Line Magentic 24 watt 219ia and that was indeed a very lovely combo. Either speaker brand might potentially be of interest for Marc but who knows really? It’s just that he might possibly get the better out of Devores with his current system but with the 40.2s and his music preferences and particular amp choice that maybe he’ll get some very lush and lovely sounds but presenting the 40.2s just as a tad on sleepier side of their spectrum. They do grace easy but pairing them with an amp with more of a touch of robust grunge they can also be good for some proper prog rock soul.

Remember, it is Marc who is wanting to keep his amps...I personally doubt that these amps will work great with a lot of speakers....and while they should work ok with the 40.2’s, I am not saying they are a match made in heaven.
If Marc’s amps put out about 40+ watts/ch...and will apparently put out 60watts/ch with the GM70 tubes, then they will have enough juice to drive the big Harbeths.
I asked Alex what he thought was a great speaker for 70’s rock, mainly because this is a tough question to answer. Some folks like horns on rock, I personally do not, but what is a great sounding speaker for rock.?
I have heard 40.2’s on several occasions, and they never fail to impress me...on all kinds of music. Are they the best speaker available, heck no...but they are an excellent speaker for the price and I think would give Marc what he is looking for in his size of room. ( and yes, he may have to part with his NAT’s...which also might be part of his problem, because perhaps they lock him down too much to a certain kind of speaker).
Like i stated before, there are a lot of great speakers out there, why not give some of them a try...instead of always bowing at the alter of Zu...:confused:
 

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