Visit to Avantgarde Acoustic Factory

marslo

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Poland is a bit bigger than Warsaw:)
I live 350 km from Warsaw and only 300 km from ... Berlin .
 

TheMooN

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Congratulations marslo, I look forward to your impressions in comparison to your incumbant Duo G2's, Mezzo XD's are certainly on my own short list when the time is right.

The Universum 3 mk II's seem to be well regarded and are certainly worthy of consideration given their competitive RRP
 

marslo

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Thank you, once Mezzo delivered, will share my impressions.
Very curious about DSP , expect good things in my 100 sq m living with big windows.
I decided to order new XD series after a long conversation with Polish colleague who works in AG factory for a long time.
He says it' s a real improvement of SQ compared to G2 which I auditioned during my visit in June.
 
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DaveC

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Thank you, once Mezzo delivered, will share my impressions.
Very curious about DSP , expect good things in my 100 sq m living with big windows.
I decided to order new XD series after a long conversation with Polish colleague who works in AG factory for a long time.
He says it' s a real improvement of SQ compared to G2 which I auditionned during my visit in June.

I look forward to see what you think as well. The Duo Mezzo is the least colored and most coherent Avantgard speaker I've heard, and honestly the only one I've really liked. The Trios w/basshorns were entertaining but too far from neutral to be worthwhile, at least for me.
 

Ron Resnick

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The Trios w/basshorns were entertaining but too far from neutral to be worthwhile, at least for me.

Dave, In what ways did you find the Trios with basshorns too far from neutral? Please elaborate.
 

Ron Resnick

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Congratulations, marslo!
 

marslo

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Thank you Ron, decision inspired also by your great write-up:)
 

DaveC

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spiritofmusic

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They sound more natural.

Dave, that sounds a bit ambiguous. You say you wouldn't consider the Trios/Basshorns because they sound more natural? Or do you mean the Duos Mezzos sound more natural?
 

Audio Meister

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For accuracy the Duo Mezzo and Duo Mezzo XD is not strictly a full horn speaker. The lower frequencies <170Hz are provided by a sealed box enclosure and at the front a very short horn flare is provided. This flare is short and provides very little efficiency which is what horn bass is all about. The bass horn available with the Trio systems is a horn although still quite short in length but is heavily equalised and amplified to make up for the short length. Obviously to provide true horn bass would require enormous cabinets plus the room to accommodate these so the active bass is a recognised compromise. However there is a big sonic difference between active bass and active equalised bass, where in the former the bass is not boosted.

How have Avantgarde got over the time delay difference in their XD models between the sound coming from the DSP and amp driving the bass and the direct sound coming from the mid and high frequency horns driven by their owners amplifiers?
 

spiritofmusic

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Graham, got that.
Thanx very much for your hospitality on Saturday, Ron and I had an excellent time listening to yr Cessaro Liszts.
But if we're talking about what are "true" horns and are not, surely the Liszts don't quite make this definition too because of the 11" dynamic driver covering the range up to 500Hz.
By this definition, only the Cessaro models Beta 2/w.Basshorns & Beethoven and above, Tune Audio Animas and AG Trio/w.Basshorns, fit into the "true" 100% horns provision.
 

Ron Resnick

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Graham, thank you from me, too, for your hospitality and graciousness on Saturday. I had a wonderful time listening to the Cessaro Liszts, and I appreciated the introduction to your very impressive Tron amplifiers and pre-amplifiers! I was happy to see an all analog set-up (vinyl and tape).

Although I do believe the ultimate proof of a component is in the implementation and the resulting sound, and not in the theory of the design, I could not help but critique the construction quality and lack of frame rigidity of the Avantgarde Trios. The Liszts not only sounded great to me (with the caveat that I believe there is some compromise with a conventional driver covering that critical 100 Hz to 500 Hz range) but I, personally, appreciated the heroic construction quality, rigidity and inertness of the cabinet, and the solidity and precision molding quality of the horns. (The counter-argument, in fairness, being that, in theory, horn aficionados might not want a horn system constructed with a traditional, heavy cabinet design.)

Marc is correct that the right Cessaro system for me, were I to go in the direction of horns, probably would be the Beta II with basshorns.
 

spiritofmusic

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They ARE pretty good Keith, agreed, but this doesn't obviate the fact that there is a dynamic cone driver in the 100-500Hz range that other horns run mids horn and uppr bass-lwr mids horn to cover. Not a complaint, just a statement of fact. Tbh, the AG Trios/Basshorns at 2/3 the price, or even the Tune Audio Animas, are more purist setups being ALL horns.
This isn't a dig at the Liszts, I liked them very much at both your's and Graeme's, despite the presentations being diametrically different. This aspect is causing me some little confusion trying to ascertain their true nature.
 

bonzo75

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I think focusing on too much cabinet construction is a false positive for people who don't veer to boxes because it leads to cabinet coloring and higher prices. I personally don't prefer any horn that uses a cabinet woofer. I am sure the 5-way Cessaros will sound great. My search ends at trios with basshorns. If I want to compromise with the bass I will get the WE 16A replica which is the best I have heard till 80hz, and then cross it over to a sub.
 

Audio Meister

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Graham, got that.
Thanx very much for your hospitality on Saturday, Ron and I had an excellent time listening to yr Cessaro Liszts.
But if we're talking about what are "true" horns and are not, surely the Liszts don't quite make this definition too because of the 11" dynamic driver covering the range up to 500Hz.
By this definition, only the Cessaro models Beta 2/w.Basshorns & Beethoven and above, Tune Audio Animas and AG Trio/w.Basshorns, fit into the "true" 100% horns provision.

You are welcome Marc. It was a very enjoyable afternoon.

Actually none of those mentioned above fit into the "true" horn category as they all use active bass. With the exception of Cessaro they all use active and equalised bass.

Don't get hung up on that 11" dynamic driver handling the 80-500Hz range. This has an alnico magnet and is exactly the same driver that is in the Beta lower midrange horn. The only difference is that the Beta has horn loading which gives a little more efficiency. Although its a dynamic driver, it is custom made for Cessaro, it has a very light cone and is very fast and very efficient and as you heard here, it is a seamless sound from top to bottom. Great care is taken to the selection of drivers and the crossover design to ensure these speakers provides seamless reproduction on all the Cessaro models. Having said that it would be different if the speaker system was designed to work in an auditorium and at high power levels, then the efficiency would be more important but these speakers are designed for a domestic environment and therefore should be chosen on the size and space available.
Lastly, with 100dB efficiency is very difficult to find amplifiers to work well with speakers of high efficiency, so don't forget to factor this into the equation too.

Interesting to note: Measuring here with exactly the same volume on my preamp (and measured with a sound level meter) the Liszt which is 100dB/watt efficient has exactly the same sound level for exactly the same volume as my Trio Omega system which is listed at 110dB/watt.
 

Audio Meister

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Graham, thank you from me, too, for your hospitality and graciousness on Saturday. I had a wonderful time listening to the Cessaro Liszts, and I appreciated the introduction to your very impressive Tron amplifiers and pre-amplifiers! I was happy to see an all analog set-up (vinyl and tape).

Although I do believe the ultimate proof of a component is in the implementation and the resulting sound, and not in the theory of the design, I could not help but critique the construction quality and lack of frame rigidity of the Avantgarde Trios. The Liszts not only sounded great to me (with the caveat that I believe there is some compromise with a conventional driver covering that critical 100 Hz to 500 Hz range) but I, personally, appreciated the heroic construction quality, rigidity and inertness of the cabinet, and the solidity and precision molding quality of the horns. (The counter-argument, in fairness, being that, in theory, horn aficionados might not want a horn system constructed with a traditional, heavy cabinet design.)

Marc is correct that the right Cessaro system for me, were I to go in the direction of horns, probably would be the Beta II with basshorns.

Hi Ron, it was good to meet you on Saturday and glad you enjoyed your visit.

As I mentioned in my reply to Marc above:

"Don't get hung up on that 11" dynamic driver handling the 80-500Hz range. This has an alnico magnet and is exactly the same driver that is in the Beta lower midrange horn. The only difference is that the Beta has horn loading which gives a little more efficiency. Although its a dynamic driver, it is custom made for Cessaro, it has a very light cone and is very fast and very efficient and as you heard here, it is a seamless sound from top to bottom. Great care is taken to the selection of drivers and the crossover design to ensure these speakers provide seamless reproduction on all the Cessaro models. Having said that it would be different if the speaker system was designed to work in an auditorium and at high power levels, then the efficiency would be more important but these speakers are designed for a domestic environment and therefore should be chosen on the size and space available."

In a larger room and playing at higher sound levels the extra efficiency of the Beta, Beethoven and Gamma systems come into their own. That is assuming you have the amplification that is quiet enough to drive this level of efficiency. I have heard the Beta system quite a few times and it is very good if you have a large room. Personally I preferred the synergy and cohesiveness of sound that the Liszt brings to the party (smaller all in one design) and this works very well in my listening room. In fact I would be happy to call the Liszt my last loudspeaker...

P.S. never thought I would use the word "smaller" in relation to the Liszt!
 

Audio Meister

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Betas with front loaded horns, I agree, that is the way to go, I ordered a pair, but when Ralph came to measure we just couldn't get them ( and me) into the room.
The Liszts are pretty good though.
Keith.

Yes, the Liszts are pretty good.

Next time Keith, try to select a speaker that fits in your room better so you don't have the problems you had with the Liszt as it was far too big. These speakers move an awful lot of air in the room and you need to be sitting 4-5 metres away from the speakers with space behind you. That means you would need to be sitting somewhere in the middle of your front garden to get the best position. The Chopin or Wagner would have been the better choice in your front room.
 

audio-land

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I think focusing on too much cabinet construction is a false positive for people who don't veer to boxes because it leads to cabinet coloring and higher prices. I personally don't prefer any horn that uses a cabinet woofer. I am sure the 5-way Cessaros will sound great. My search ends at trios with basshorns. If I want to compromise with the bass I will get the WE 16A replica which is the best I have heard till 80hz, and then cross it over to a sub.
Hi Bonzo,

Having heard WE 16A several times, (it wasn't side by side comparison though), you might change your opinion after hearing Liszt/Carmen in our room. From large orchestra to heavy metal, we will gladly play all your records. (sorry we do not carry digital)

Try Slayer on WE 16A and you won't last to 15 seconds.

Happy spinning.
 

bonzo75

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Hi Bonzo,

Having heard WE 16A several times, (it wasn't side by side comparison though), you might change your opinion after hearing Liszt/Carmen in our room. From large orchestra to heavy metal, we will gladly play all your records. (sorry we do not carry digital)

Try Slayer on WE 16A and you won't last to 15 seconds.

Happy spinning.

Well luckily I grew out of Slayer, except for watching on Youtube where their drummer stood in to play the drums for Zep's No Quarter in "The Groove Remains the Same", an annual tribute to Bonzo.

Which drivers did you hear the WE 16A with?
 

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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Dave, that sounds a bit ambiguous. You say you wouldn't consider the Trios/Basshorns because they sound more natural? Or do you mean the Duos Mezzos sound more natural?

Lol, just having fun with the "natural" descriptor and associated thread.

I probably heard the trios too long ago to say for certain if my impressions applies to the current product. The trios sounded colored and disjointed to me, this was distracting and not a system I could live with , but of course setup is a big part of it and may not have been ideal as the system I heard was at a show. At the last RMAF the Duo Mezzos sounded much less colored and far more cohesive, this is a speaker that I would happily live with. There was less horn coloration with the relatively short horns and the bass cab was well integrated. The horn flares on the bass cab provide questionable benefit, just for looks/marketing imo, but these things are very important.
 

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