Vishay Z-Foil vs Audio Note Non-Magnetic Resistors

[bazelio]

No Salelectric is correct that if you needed to do this via resistance, you'd do it at the input. I'd probably do it at the attenuator by giving the one side a heavier load by a smidge and test by ear or measurement of a mono signal.

 

[latheofheaven]

No Salelectric is correct that if you needed to do this via resistance, you'd do it at the input. I'd probably do it at the attenuator by giving the one side a heavier load by a smidge and test by ear or measurement of a mono signal.

Okidoke, thanks. Unfortunately, any 'proper' fix like that will require a technician. I was sure hoping to avoid that even if it whatever I can do is NOT the best solution. But, thanks!

 

[bazelio]

I don't know if you have an integrated tube amp or standalone, but if separates, make sure which component is causing the problem first. Definitely check / swap the tubes including the rectifiers assuming they are tube and not silicon. Tube swapping is the easiest and probably most likely thing to do to fix this.

 

[latheofheaven]

I don't know if you have an integrated tube amp or standalone, but if separates, make sure which component is causing the problem first. Definitely check / swap the tubes including the rectifiers assuming they are tube and not silicon. Tube swapping is the easiest and probably most likely thing to do to fix this.

Oh sorry, yes I thought I mentioned that it was the Ayon Orion II which is an integrated tube amp. The Ayon representative wrote back to me and said that I can switch the tubes left to right, but he suggests first the low power tubes, so I am trying that.

Couldn't I Please PLEASE PLEASE just throw a high quality resistor on the speaker wire, like the Magnepan people do sometimes in case it is the amp, just as a QUICK temporary fix...?

 

[Salectric]

The simple answer is NO. While a resistor in series with one speaker will reduce the volume of that speaker, you have no idea what value resistor to use. It could be 0.5 ohms or 1.0 ohms or 4 ohms or 8 ohms. Nobody could know the value in advance because no one knows how much louder one channel is than the other and, even if we did know, the value would depend on the particular speaker. Lastly a series resistor would likely cause tonal balance problems because speakers have varying impedance at different frequencies. A series resistor will therefore reduce the volume by different amounts at different frequencies.

Just swap the tubes and you can solve the problem instead of putting a band aid on it.

Since you may not have experience with tube amps, you should know this—-always wait several minutes before powering up the amp again. Therefore, before changing tubes, turn the amp off and let it cool down for 5 or 10 minutes. Then swap tubes and turn it back on. Not only is it safer to remove tubes after they have cooled a bit, but the delay is also important to avoid stress on the tubes and power supply.

 

[latheofheaven]

The simple answer is NO. While a resistor in series with one speaker will reduce the volume of that speaker, you have no idea what value resistor to use. It could be 0.5 ohms or 1.0 ohms or 4 ohms or 8 ohms. Nobody could know the value in advance because no one knows how much louder one channel is than the other and, even if we did know, the value would depend on the particular speaker. Lastly a series resistor would likely cause tonal balance problems because speakers have varying impedance at different frequencies. A series resistor will therefore reduce the volume by different amounts at different frequencies.

Just swap the tubes and you can solve the problem instead of putting a band aid on it.

Since you may not have experience with tube amps, you should know this—-always wait several minutes before powering up the amp again. Therefore, before changing tubes, turn the amp off and let it cool down for 5 or 10 minutes. Then swap tubes and turn it back on. Not only is it safer to remove tubes after they have cooled a bit, but the delay is also important to avoid stress on the tubes and power supply.

Ah, bummer... Okay, well thanks for at least explaining that to me so that I understand why everyone is so against that idea I knew the ohmage would be guesswork, but I was THINKING that you guys know well enough about this that you could help me narrow it down. But yeah, if it is really going to affect the tonal balance THAT much, that would not be good.

I did hear back from the Ayon fellow, and first he said to switch the smaller tubes left to right. That didn't make a difference (Sure would've been a NICE easy fix though! ) So, after telling him this, he said to go ahead and switch the power tubes left to right. But alas... No difference So yeah, sadly, it is apparently the amp itself...

 

[DaveC]

Ok, make sure you switch all the tubes left to right, once done and there's no difference, then switch the input interconnect cables left to right.

If the input cables result in the level change switching sides then the issue is upstream of your amp.

If the levels didn't change sides now switch your speaker cables. If the level difference switches sides then it's your speaker. If not it's your amp and it'll need service, if there's an issue with it it's likely causing a decrease in sound quality or it could lead to further problems so please DO NOT attempt to fix this issue by inserting a balance control.

Good luck!

edit: I hope that makes sense and I got the logic correct, I just got back from a long weekend without enough sleep so I want to add a disclaimer...

 

[latheofheaven]

Ok, make sure you switch all the tubes left to right, once done and there's no difference, then switch the input interconnect cables left to right.

If the input cables result in the level change switching sides then the issue is upstream of your amp.

If the levels didn't change sides now switch your speaker cables. If the level difference switches sides then it's your speaker. If not it's your amp and it'll need service, if there's an issue with it it's likely causing a decrease in sound quality or it could lead to further problems so please DO NOT attempt to fix this issue by inserting a balance control.

Good luck!

edit: I hope that makes sense and I got the logic correct, I just got back from a long weekend without enough sleep so I want to add a disclaimer...

Heh... No, no, I gotcha Honestly, that was the very first thing I did, just like you said (with the exception of the speaker thing ) When I changed R/L speaker outputs from the amp, the phenomenon did change sides showing that the same channel on the amp was 'bad'...

Oh no... I would never DREAM of adding a component in the signal chain like that no way... If you saw my system and the way it is designed, especially the tall multi-driver open baffle dipole line-arrays with only ONE capacitor on each channel going just to the ribbon tweeter, and all others full range (12/side) you'll see that I am quite loathe to introduce ANYTHING into the signal chain that I don't have to.

BUT... with that said... (here come the dumb part) I STILL am rabidly curious about just throwing a high quality resistor (Mills wirewound as you had suggested for other purposes?) just to see how it affects the sound. I KNOW that it affects the inductance of the, in this case, 13 drivers a side, differently, and if it sounds like crap I'll take it off.

The good news is that someone on the Steve Hoffman Forums who also lives in the San Diego area did recommend a technician not too terribly far away, so there is that if I don't completely paralyze myself trying to lift the damn 90 pound thing!

 

[Barry]

Having a large channel volume difference will have an obvious fix if you have patience and diagnose systematically. It's worth learning these skills. Take the advice already offered and then go to the tech. Find out what gets fixed and what may have caused it so you can deal with it if it happens again. Your system sounds complicated. Be prepared if it's not the amp....

A Mills wire wound resistor on the output will absolutely sound like crap. Try it for fun, but there's no learning experience here - 2 wrongs don't make a right!

 

[latheofheaven]

Having a large channel volume difference will have an obvious fix if you have patience and diagnose systematically. It's worth learning these skills. Take the advice already offered and then go to the tech. Find out what gets fixed and what may have caused it so you can deal with it if it happens again. Your system sounds complicated. Be prepared if it's not the amp....

A Mills wire wound resistor on the output will absolutely sound like crap. Try it for fun, but there's no learning experience here - 2 wrongs don't make a right!

Sounds like very good advice, thank you!

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

Sounds like very good advice, thank you!

The potentiometer channel imbalance can cause the difference in volume. How much do you turn the potentiometer for your listening levels? 9 o'clock?

 

[adrianywu]

I used Mills non-inductive wirewounds for anode loading for a long time. When some of those became noisy, I bought new replacements, but their quality was not the same. The old ones were black and the new ones are brown. I found out that they had moved the manufacturing to Mexico. I suspect they are now crimping the ends, which can cause noise when the temperature rises. I changed to Caddock military grade non-inductive thick film resistors. They are large and heavy, but really excellent. Very stable, durable, and sounds very transparent.

 

[latheofheaven]

The potentiometer channel imbalance can cause the difference in volume. How much do you turn the potentiometer for your listening levels? 9 o'clock?

Could be... Yeah, I would say the average would be about 1/4 - 1/3.

 

[latheofheaven]

I used Mills non-inductive wirewounds for anode loading for a long time. When some of those became noisy, I bought new replacements, but their quality was not the same. The old ones were black and the new ones are brown. I found out that they had moved the manufacturing to Mexico. I suspect they are now crimping the ends, which can cause noise when the temperature rises. I changed to Caddock military grade non-inductive thick film resistors. They are large and heavy, but really excellent. Very stable, durable, and sounds very transparent.

Ah, now that is good to know, thanks!

 

[adrianywu]

Heh... No, no, I gotcha Honestly, that was the very first thing I did, just like you said (with the exception of the speaker thing ) When I changed R/L speaker outputs from the amp, the phenomenon did change sides showing that the same channel on the amp was 'bad'...

Oh no... I would never DREAM of adding a component in the signal chain like that no way... If you saw my system and the way it is designed, especially the tall multi-driver open baffle dipole line-arrays with only ONE capacitor on each channel going just to the ribbon tweeter, and all others full range (12/side) you'll see that I am quite loathe to introduce ANYTHING into the signal chain that I don't have to.

BUT... with that said... (here come the dumb part) I STILL am rabidly curious about just throwing a high quality resistor (Mills wirewound as you had suggested for other purposes?) just to see how it affects the sound. I KNOW that it affects the inductance of the, in this case, 13 drivers a side, differently, and if it sounds like crap I'll take it off.

The good news is that someone on the Steve Hoffman Forums who also lives in the San Diego area did recommend a technician not too terribly far away, so there is that if I don't completely paralyze myself trying to lift the damn 90 pound thing!

Have you checked the voltages (B+, heater, bias if present)? The two channels might have separate regulators and the voltage might be lower on one.

 

[marty]

Before you go down the rabbit hole, did you reverse channels (both input, then output next) to determine which side had the attenuated output? Very unlikely an errant resistor accounts for a 3dB change in loudness on one side. Agree a tube is more likely but you would benefit from doing some straight forward diagnostics first.

PS Love the vinyl collection. Looks like my old dorm room!!

 

[latheofheaven]

Have you checked the voltages (B+, heater, bias if present)? The two channels might have separate regulators and the voltage might be lower on one.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm afraid you are rapidly surpassing my paygrade

These things could indeed be true, but honestly until I take it (using a crane!) to a technician where he knows about and can check these things, I truly don't know...

I KNOW I'm on borrowed time here and that it is only a matter of 'When'... But, for the moment, out of both blissfully ignorant curiosity and also 'putting it off' both stresswise and moneywise, I am playing around with these resistors just to see what it does (nothing awful I certainly hope!)

Now, again... another deep dive into ignorance... but, interestingly I snagged these metal case wirewound resistors from Amazon, JUST TO TRY, and I got 5 @ 1ohm each. I thought that would be about right somewhere in there for the difference I'm hearing (although I fully and humbly admit, I have NO bloody idea) I tried 1, then 2, and now 3 are on there. And, with each one the balance has shifted a little each time. I don't think 3 ohms is enough yet though.

BUT... here is what is interesting (at least to me) I kept waiting to hear this 'Horrible' affect on the sound quality that all you guys mention (and admittedly know WAY more about than I do) but, quite honestly, I haven't noticed any glaring differences tonally or dimensionally.

Now, I KNOW it could simply be because my system is not resolving enough, okay... But, I have always felt that other than really expensive, esoteric systems, it has sounded very good, with a very detailed and spacious image and soundstage and tonally pretty good. Where I can easily tell the difference between sources. Like, for example the latest Jack White album. Sadly, the vinyl does not sound terribly good. But... and I would never have believed this, the 96/24 FLAC version frigg'n BLOWS it away in dynamics and sound quality and tone and everything! I've never heard such a case before. And, I can very easily tell the differences in pressings from compressed ones to lovely analog sourced ones that maybe Kevin Gray did or whatever. And, I am NOT talk'n slight differences where you hafta strain to hear them, I'm talking kicking you in the frigg'n NUTZ differences. So, I've honestly always considered my system to be quite resolving. And, I'm not hearing all this awful degradation that is being talked about (so far...)

NOW... here is what I'm wondering... Do you guys think that MAYBE because I have 13 open baffle dipole drivers a side, that that could in some way mitigate or 'soften' all this degradation that I'm supposed to hear? 12 of the drivers are full range and only the ribbon tweeter has one capacitor on it as a crossover. The drivers are wired Series/Parallel in the sense that the 12 drivers are grouped in 3 each wired in series and then the 4 groups are wired in parallel (in order to get the desired total ohmage) So, do you think maybe a person with a more 'Normal' 2 or 3 way system would possibly hear more distortion because of that? Or, again, am I just smok'n somethin' here...?

If you checked out the link below to my system, you can see what I mean. I'll try to include a couple of pictures here to show you what my setup is. I KNOW that the wiring looks like total crap, but I just threw it together to hear how it sounds:

 

[latheofheaven]

Before you go down the rabbit hole, did you reverse channels (both input, then output next) to determine which side had the attenuated output? Very unlikely an errant resistor accounts for a 3dB change in loudness on one side. Agree a tube is more likely but you would benefit from doing some straight forward diagnostics first.

PS Love the vinyl collection. Looks like my old dorm room!!

Heh, thanks for the kind comment

Oh yeah, I did all that first thing. Changed everything before and after the amp. Switched tubes, both pre and power from left to right. Sadly, It most definitely is the amp.

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

I used Mills non-inductive wirewounds for anode loading for a long time. When some of those became noisy, I bought new replacements, but their quality was not the same. The old ones were black and the new ones are brown. I found out that they had moved the manufacturing to Mexico. I suspect they are now crimping the ends, which can cause noise when the temperature rises. I changed to Caddock military grade non-inductive thick film resistors. They are large and heavy, but really excellent. Very stable, durable, and sounds very transparent.

Caddock makes excellent parts, great choice. Mind one thing, they are not as resistant (hehehe) to overloading. This is common for all film resistors. Wirewounds are durable since their resistive element is thicker and has more thermal mass.

 

[latheofheaven]

Caddock makes excellent parts, great choice. Mind one thing, they are not as resistant (hehehe) to overloading. This is common for all film resistors. Wirewounds are durable since their resistive element is thicker and has more thermal mass.

Yeah, I'm glad that he recommended those, of course I've never heard of them. So, as soon as I HOPEFULLY get the right amount of resistance to get the balance 'right' temporarily until I can take it in, I will then buy the Caddock at the right ohmage to replace whatever number of these inexpensive ones I needed to use.