Hi Sampajanna,When I click your name, Joe, most all of your posts on this forum are all in this thread (and one dedicated to this dac). Personally, I don’t think WBF benefits from this. I think having dealers and brand liaisons on the forum can be a great thing, as they offer experience and expertise to contribute to conversations. Elliot, for example, is knowledgeable and a part of many conversations throughout the forum. Whether or not it is true, this makes it feel like you have signed up just to schill your product in this comparison thread and the mere whiff of that. puts me off. Others may feel different. I know your intentions are to share something you are passionate about. I hope this is the beginning of you sharing your perspective on many topics, not just why we should consider your dac versus these others. I dont think anyone shopping for dacs in this price range will be swayed by anything said in this thread anyway.
I think dealers interested in engaging, should engage, contribute, share experience and participate genuinely, instead of viewing WBF as a way of promoting. By conversing and sharing experience, you will make friends and help others. Over time, that will lend to your credibility and create a solid reputation for you.
Don’t get me wrong, I love WBF. And maybe not enough people agree with me to do something about this. I like the moderators here and how this forum is run. (Ron in particular is great.) I don’t have any suggestions. But I will say that I feel like we should be free to compare dacs and discuss that comparison without a bunch of dealers joining WBF just to derail the thread with hurt feelings, accusations of advertising biases and schills for their products.
Nice job on the video!
Nice video joe. Your video did not mean any negative intentions nor did other manufacturers/ dealers. You will always hear some people crying. Keep posting such videos. I liked the philosophy of your dacs. I had my eyes on these dacs. Hopefully sometime
Nobody objects against posting manufacturer videos but please NOT in a compare thread of a USERNice video joe. Your video did not mean any negative intentions nor did other manufacturers/ dealers. You will always hear some people crying. Keep posting such videos. I liked the philosophy of your dacs. I had my eyes on these dacs. Hopefully sometime
I believe a lot of what you are saying is true, which I find just crazy. I personally love the idea that he was able to gather different DACs and listen to them in his setup and pick the one he likes.
Hey Ron,I am afraid I do not see how diverting to a discussion of differences among samples of different kinds of components would help calibrate or communicate the scale for DACs.
True. Heck when I was looking for a music server, all I heard was people trying to tell me what was "best". It just so happened what was best was what they owned or in dealers case, what they sold.sorry, forgot about this... Yes, I agree on the quality of the decision making process. So Well done in this situation! Even if the OP chose dcs or anything else he auditioned, it’s the right decision making approach. I hope his choice brings this man many hours of joy and bliss.
In so many cases, audiophiles go to their Wilson dealer, who also frequently sells dcs, and the dealer tells them dcs is the best digital they’ve heard in 47 years of being in this business. (The dealer may actually like dcs - or hate it but may be incentivized to sell it over other brands in his stable, or may be just an experientially impoverished mother fukker.) So many audiophiles, even experienced ones, see the dealer as the expert.
They don’t question. They don’t venture our to hear alternatives. They don’t bring enough demos home to hear the units in their system. They just confirm their bias by reading raving reviews , most of which don’t sharpen the trade offs between gear, but just hype up the typical dreck magazine’s reviewers enjoy or want to push that month.
But my comment was actually about the tribal nature of the replies in the thread , and the rivalries among the preferences of different camps / social networks of the guys.
Human nature has wired us to like people who are similar to us. Humans have a proclivity toward “factions” a tendency to divide ourselves into teams or parties that are so inflamed with “mutual animosity” that they are “much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to cooperate” and make this hobby more enjoyable…. people are so prone to factionalism that “where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.” (Quotes are from James Madison Federalist Number 10.)
And in this context of high end audio, people like others who share similar tastes and brands they enjoy. After all, we are dealing with very powerful emotions - those arising from music. And in so many cases, the guys who like the gear or audio experiences they like are right, while everyone else is a dumb mother fuyer….
We see this very frequently on this forum, with guys who own the same brand or those who have hung out listening together. They have formed bonds that’s resulted in small social networks and factions. Examples we see are wilson / dcs fansboys, the fairly new love affair between wadax dealers and some wadax fans, horn guys, platonic imaginationists, guys recently making the pilgrimage to DDK’s Mecca, lampizator owners , etc. And outside the forum, for example, the Boston based Goodwin dealership and many of their customers worship Rockport over Wilson and everything else, etc.
The guys falling into their small social networks follow each other around, “liking” each other’s posts.
Us , humans, are suckers for flattery, and this “liking” function further reinforces and amplifies the phenomenon. Per James Madixon, these small gangs cooperate and support each other’s posts, fighting for those “common goals” and tastes of their group. And they clash and argue with the other guys who do not share their views and preferences. These repeated forum “battles” further strengthen the bonds within their social networks …
Scientifically grounded behavioral science principles confirm all of this. (check out research by Cialdini.)
So trueYou have to trust your own ears
To me this is what it is about and what I strive for.As I’m listening now I’m tapping my feet in joy
PreachEnjoy the music and satisfy yourself and your ears. No need for the approval of others.
Good article and very apropos of what we see in audiophile world.Hey Ron,
Not trying to divert the discussion toward other gear, but instead trying to get a sense of where you are coming from. And , of course, nothing wrong with your 10-25 percent range - just an interesting perspective, in this subjective, black art hobby of ours. Stereophile class A categories frequently include gear priced from mid 4 digits to upper 5 digits.
I mentioned some rationale for differences in perspectives in my previous post (system transparency, engagement and passion for digital, etc.). But there’s more to it. Your comment makes me think of a concept from gestalt psychology that is helpful in judging the scope of differences: is one a leveler or a sharpener?
Some people perceive the differences between gear sharper than others: the Red Sea parts with every tweak they try. But your lower end of the range is kinda the opposite end of the spectrum- only a 10 percent difference.
So you seem like a leveler. At least as far as digital goes. But for those of us that are sharpeners (in the realm of digital or all of audio products), the differences seem much greater than your range.
I’m more of a sharpener when it comes to DACs and all things audio. And I imagine that for those who are into DACs, or those looking for a particular sound they have found to enjoy, there are very distinct differences between the units.
For example, the lampi people want that tone, texture, and emotions of tubes. And they let everyone and their mother on the internet know about it. Wadax people talk of the primary differentiator of their unit is that it sounds “like tape” to them (whatever that means), and are willing to pay a premium for that Pleasure...
Ch Precision digital sounds so well engineered and precise, the arrogant designer just knew it was perfect. He didn’t even bother to listen to it. But he doesn’t realize it’s tone is leaner than a size zero model. If he and his marketing people are paying attention, many ch dealers are pushing wadax…
Msb people talk of smoothness, but I perceive msb as too smooth, blunting attack transients… yet the smoothness of MSB sounds good to them on these sterile, brutally transparent modern box speakers that are driven by solid state. But why apply that relaxed, Kenny G filter on all the music in other types of systems? But I do find MSB sounds stunning with very dynamic, horn -type systems...
I also find your comment interesting since you are a part owner of this site, and our hobby survives , in part, on people perceiving these differences as SHARP. And paying a premium for that in many cases.
And of course, all the online arguments , because of the perceived differences, large or small… how long would The Analytical Sound magazine survive without their odious “audio journalists” over-hyping whatever they want to push, which is usually excessive analytical details, while ignoring the downsides and trade offs… can you imagine the Analytical Sound guys saying that ch precision amps costing a cool quarter million dollars is only 10 percent better than Paul Mc Gawno’s amps for $15k…. And that Ch precision is definitely very good , but in comparison to Mc Gawno’s gear is just over- priced drek ….
Hahaha…hahaha… how many manufacturers would give their gear to those guys?
Here’s an excellent article from stereophile on this interesting subject: https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/are_you_a_sharpener_or_a_leveler/index.html
A brother from another mother!Audiophile confession: while I hear differences between components, I never feel like the perceptual seas have just parted. I’m grateful for whatever improvements I get in my system but I usually experience it as a more nuanced change. I think most changes I’ve made have been for the good.
Now, differences in music, recording quality and music performances— that will get me a lot more riled-up!
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