Tuning Fuses?!

microstrip

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Francisco

Would you agree however that there just could be more science when one person switches fuses and/or direction and the other person listens blindly than when one person does it sighted

Steve,

Consider your system. It will take some warm-up time to reach full quality and I can easily guess that this effect will be larger than switching the fuse. Any switching will take a long time to reach stable conditions and probably you and your poor fellow will be tired before reaching any conclusion. The alternative way - you can take a few days with each type of fuse, take your notes and after one month reach a conclusion. I am prepared to accept that this is the good method, but are you wanting to do the experiment?

My point does not apply only to fuses, it applies for the high-end reviewing in general. There are many issues - I am prepared to debate them. But I can not, no one dares to suggest a possible scenario with detail. Do you know how many times you have to carry a blind test to have a reliable statistic? Science does not accept statically invalid results.
 

mep

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For some people on this forum, double blind tests belong in the same belief system as motherhood and apple pie. How many people on this forum have systems made up of components that were only purchased after a double blind test?
 

microstrip

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microstrip

In another thread you wrote THIS I am quoting it here

How do you think those statistics toward "good sound" were obtained? with serious blind tests or through sighted tests? If you are referring to The Harman researches or those of F. Toole, I am sure you know they were obtained in blind situations. Do you fail to see the contradiction? Since High End Audio is the epitome of "Good Sound' or at least should be ...

There is no contradiction at all. I just made a pleasant comment to John using the word statistics just to show that we need a lot of opinions to have a converging and valid result versus good sound even not knowing the real thing. I fail to see any relation with our point now - my point is about the practical execution of the tests.

BTW1, if you a have a very large population the number of people who knows the prices becomes very low relative to whole population and will not affect the result. But yes we can have other biases, such as speaker color.

BTW2 Nice to know you are now reading the book ...
 

microstrip

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Well that is what I call resistance. ok. If you want to believe that knowing the fuse is in is more accurate than not knowing ... I am not sure there is any more that could be said.

Frantz,

I did not expect such a misinterpretation and biased summary of my points from you. You omit the essential part from it - because the practical conditions of not knowing IMHO will create an even bigger inaccuracy.

BTW, we never referred that there are many ways of controlling the answers of sighted tests. People are so happy diabolizing them that they do not thing they can be perfected.
 

FrantzM

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Blinded tests are absolutely the gold standard in real science in any circumstance where it is possible to do such a test.

They are an important part of the scientific method, used to prevent research outcomes from being influenced by the placebo effect or observer bias.

There is no contradiction at all. I just made a pleasant comment to John using the word statistics just to show that we need a lot of opinions to have a converging and valid result versus good sound even not knowing the real thing. I fail to see any relation with our point now - my point is about the practical execution of the tests.

BTW1, if you a have a very large population the number of people who knows the prices becomes very low relative to whole population and will not affect the result. But yes we can have other biases, such as speaker color.

BTW2 Nice to know you are now reading the book ...

I have had that book for a while and have read it, over and over. Like his point of view.

Your "pleasant comment" is not a chance one it is based on your knowledge or things audio and on the works of F. Toole in particular. You may dither or obfuscate all you want... It is relevant to the validity of blind tests in the context of High End Audio.
 

MylesBAstor

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I have done microbiological/immunology and clinical research.

Nevertheless, blind studies are still the gold scientific standard.

Was that clinical or basic science? And the results were published in a peer reviewed journal?
 

microstrip

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I have had that book for a while and have read it, over and over. Like his point of view.

Your "pleasant comment" is not a chance one it is based on your knowledge or things audio and on the works of F. Toole in particular. You may dither or obfuscate all you want... It is relevant to the validity of blind tests in the context of High End Audio.

Well, I am more critical. I like many of his views, disagree on many others. And, AFAIK none of my comments is based in chance.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Steve,

Consider your system. It will take some warm-up time to reach full quality and I can easily guess that this effect will be larger than switching the fuse. Any switching will take a long time to reach stable conditions and probably you and your poor fellow will be tired before reaching any conclusion. The alternative way - you can take a few days with each type of fuse, take your notes and after one month reach a conclusion. I am prepared to accept that this is the good method, but are you wanting to do the experiment?

My point does not apply only to fuses, it applies for the high-end reviewing in general. There are many issues - I am prepared to debate them. But I can not, no one dares to suggest a possible scenario with detail. Do you know how many times you have to carry a blind test to have a reliable statistic? Science does not accept statically invalid results.

Point well made however IMO Peter (ack)has shown us a way to use each amplifier separately to make those determinations
 

ack

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... and another important, indirect point I also made is to also bring the preamp up to spec as well, to avoid the weakest-link effect - I think this is why I did not hear a difference when replacing just the preamp's fuse at first. Still, as said earlier, I think it will all depend on how your system draws current and the quality of the stock fuse.
 

ack

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The test is really simple: feed the exact same mono signal to your monoblock amplifiers, with and without different fuses (thus, keeping everything else constant) by replacing one fuse at a time, to easily look for differences; if your speakers are properly positioned in the room and you have no weird room reflections, no differences using a mono input signal would be rendered as a perfectly stable mono image right down the middle between the speakers as you move your head around, as you would expect; but if there are differences, you will easily pick them up and then you engage in critical listening to figure out whether they are for the better or worse. This is your typical equilibrium-type test, where you bring the system to equilibrium, change one parameter and see if it makes a difference, then bring it back to equilibrium; if that one parameter change affects equilibrium, evaluate it further.


  1. In Stereo mode, set the preamp's volume at a constant, normal-to-high listening level for the duration of the test. Test with high-powered music.
  2. Replace the preamp's stock fuse with the same kind under evaluation - this eliminates the preamp's fuse from being the weakest link in the experiment. Remember, fuses _may_ make a difference depending on how your entire system draws current (in the case of Spectral, probably how this affects the leading edge) - the fuse is an integral part of the critical power supply. Wait for the preamp to warm up again as long as you see fit. When I did this step I heard no differences, but I suspect it was eventually because the weakest link at that point were actually the amplifiers' stock fuses. If you do hear differences, then steps 3-5 are probably less necessary but still worth doing.
  3. Still using the stock amplifier fuses, now push Mono on the preamp; as you move your head around the mono image should remain completely stable and dead center. This proves that the amplifiers reproduce the exact same input signal exactly the same way with the stock fuses.
  4. Replace one of the amplifiers' fuses with the new one under evaluation; you are still in Mono; wait for the amp to warm up again as long as you see fit; move your head around and see if the image is still completely stable and dead center, or whether there are differences; this is really black and white. In my case, the image changed and moved slightly as I moved my head. If there are differences, this proves that the amplifiers now reproduce the exact same input signal differently, and the only parameter changed was one amplifier fuse.
  5. Replace the other amplifier's stock fuse with the new one under evaluation; you are still in Mono, and now both amps use the same [new] fuses, as well as the preamp; if you heard differences in Step 4, the image should now be completely stable again. This proves that the amplifiers once again reproduce the exact same input signal exactly the same way but using the new fuses, verifying that you did indeed hear differences in step 4. You can repeat 3, 4 and 5 as many times as you want to convince yourself.
  6. Steps 2 and/or 4 may have established differences: qualify them with critical listening in stereo. In my case, they were for the better, and quite evidently so. There can be a number of valid reasons why you may not hear any differences; e.g. your stock fuses are already very high quality; your system isn't necessarily fast enough and the leading edge is not affected by fuses; your system's power supplies sport high-capacity capacitor banks and they do not really need to draw a lot of current very quickly; the music you used for this test is not high-powered enough and does not stress the power supplies; etc...

Therefore, whether fuses make a difference in anyone's system or not is system dependent, and you just need to try them out. The better systems, of course, will require no fuses and employ sophisticated and non-intrusive monitoring and power-cut-off circuits.
 

MylesBAstor

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I read them (and still have them) when they were published. But that was then and this is now.

The class "D" amplifier was in the December 2012 issue.

How about the review of the ARC DAC in a recent issue of TAS that was discussed on WBF?

That does not obviate the testing system; only what's gone awry that has nothing to do with the basic premise of testing.

And BTW, I've sadly, since I don't get off on writing negative reviews, done a few in my own time.
 

ack

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Thanks for your detailed explanation. Just IMO, if your head is not locked in a vice, this test, although better than others, can lead to misinterpretations for all the reasons well known by now. There is only so much one can do at home without test equipment. Wonder how many hi-end preamps have a mono switch!

You don't want your head locked - you want to be able to assert that the image stays put where it's supposed to be when you move your head, like any other mono test you would utilize to assert, say, proper speaker placement. As you move your head, the image remains smack down the middle between the speakers and you personally feel you have moved relative to it.
 

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