Top level Audio Note digital vs. MSB? What are the sonic differences?

[morricab]

I am obviously biased but must agree with Mike on this one (although I have not heard the AN except shows). IMO, what sets the MSB (Reference in my case) apart is, in fact, how natural and uncolored the sound is across the entire frequency spectrum as opposed to the limits of tube dacs I have heard. This is a gross generalization, but in my experience they can have very nice second harmonic distortion (pretty much at frequencies of choice based on tube selection) which can be very sexy, euphonic, romantic (take your pick), but this distortion gets old to me after a while. Noise floor is their other downfall. (As a caveat, I tend to like a a transistor in the gain section of a tube source.) The best way to put my take on the MSB is it sound like good analog with virtually no noise floor.

Small signal tubes, used correctly, for the purpose of voltage amplification do not have high levels of distortion, 2nd order or otherwise. A DAC output stage is like a preamp. Go look at some preamp measurements in Stereophile and compare tube and transistor designs measurements and you will find that they are both quite low in distortion.

From what I heard also at the Munich show, the MSB room (using MSB amps as well) sounded nothing like good analog (there was plenty around for some comparison...just not in that room).

 

[morricab]

Good. Now I have two posts to quote every time someone tells me he does not like the DCS Vivaldi based on his show auditions.

Now you have three...

I am sure DCS is wonderful in your system...

 

[morricab]

Interesting... May I ask a bit more about the system at Munich (speakers, amps, cables etcs.)? Did you hear the system with a source other than the MSB? If so did it demonstrate similar dullness?

Amps were MSB 204s and speakers were SGR(?). Never seen them before. There was another room using MSB amps (mayb digital too but I didn't look) and it was not memorable (can't even remember the rest of the system...I only remember the amps because I wanted to see how hot the heat sinks got).

 

[microstrip]

(...) I am sure DCS is wonderful in your system...

Fortunately it is. Yesterday I was listening to an old favorite of mine - Michel Petrucciani "Trio in Tokyo" . Although it is not technically a top recording, I was astonished by how evocative of a real life performance it was sounding and how well the system managed to transmit the complicity of the trio. I was really bothered by the first piano strikes of So What, a signal that the recording was approaching the end ...

 

[asiufy]

Small signal tubes, used correctly, for the purpose of voltage amplification do not have high levels of distortion, 2nd order or otherwise. A DAC output stage is like a preamp. Go look at some preamp measurements in Stereophile and compare tube and transistor designs measurements and you will find that they are both quite low in distortion.

From what I heard also at the Munich show, the MSB room (using MSB amps as well) sounded nothing like good analog (there was plenty around for some comparison...just not in that room).

You must've been at the wrong room. The MSB room had no MSB amps, as the speakers were active. See photo.

 

[Pb Blimp]

Small signal tubes, used correctly, for the purpose of voltage amplification do not have high levels of distortion, 2nd order or otherwise. A DAC output stage is like a preamp. Go look at some preamp measurements in Stereophile and compare tube and transistor designs measurements and you will find that they are both quite low in distortion.

From what I heard also at the Munich show, the MSB room (using MSB amps as well) sounded nothing like good analog (there was plenty around for some comparison...just not in that room).

You can of course find examples of what you describe but your caveat "used correctly" is the essential point and you better watch the input impedance of the preamp the dac is driving (across the entire frequency range) or distortion will sky rocket versus transistors.

 

[Pb Blimp]

You must've been at the wrong room. The MSB room had no MSB amps, as the speakers were active. See photo.

Well that might explain part of the problem.

As an aside, I am not one of those people that completely discounts show auditions. In my experience, you can tell a a lot about the piece being evaluated if you listen near field and know the other components in the chain. (Of course near field listening is an art all its own to an extent.) No doubt this MSB system sound must have been bad, but I know nothing about those speakers and internal amps other than I find active stuff can be difficult to match with components and rooms. That said, you would think MSB would know better (not sure if this was done by a dealer or if Jonathon was involved).

The other big problem is that MSB and SGR makes 6 letters not 3. I would guess that mistake significantly hurt the system performance.

 

[bonzo75]

To be sure that you can tell a lot about a piece that way at a show, you will have to listen to the same piece outside in a more controlled environment, and get an 80% hit rate. Otherwise, you think you are evaluating the component correctly at a show, that's all. Also sometimes you indeed are, that creates a positive bias

 

[Legolas]

You must've been at the wrong room. The MSB room had no MSB amps, as the speakers were active. See photo.

View attachment 41116

Yes that's the room I was referring to. It was underwhelming in the extreme. Come on MSB, get the rest of the gear right. I am presuming the speakers are at fault here?

There were better sounding rooms at less than half that budget. There were other rooms that were also disappointing at Munich, and some surprises. And the sound didn't always relate to the cost either.

 

[Pb Blimp]

To be sure that you can tell a lot about a piece that way at a show, you will have to listen to the same piece outside in a more controlled environment, and get an 80% hit rate. Otherwise, you think you are evaluating the component correctly at a show, that's all. Also sometimes you indeed are, that creates a positive bias

Did you forget to put "IMO" in front of that post?

 

[Legolas]

Did you forget to put "IMO" in front of that post?

Tee Hee....

 

[bonzo75]

Did you forget to put "IMO" in front of that post?

When you post, I guess you post other people's opinion?

 

[Pb Blimp]

When you post, I guess you post other people's opinion?

So how do you designate a statement of fact versus an opinion?

 

[bonzo75]

So how do you designate a statement of fact versus an opinion?

The way you did, stating that you were golden eared enough to understand what components are doing at hifi shows. Fact?

 

[Pb Blimp]

The way you did, stating that you were golden eared enough to understand what components are doing at hifi shows. Fact?

Are you serious???? That is exactly the point I am making to you and why I used the terms "I am not" and "in my experience" to make my point. C'mon this concept isn't that complicated.

 

[Legolas]

The way you did, stating that you were golden eared enough to understand what components are doing at hifi shows. Fact?

Hey guys, lets be nice. But I see the issue, you can't say this or that as fact, it has happened before here. We really need to say IMO, or I think. It is the way it is worded (as a fact) that winds folk up. IMO of course..... we are all learning, nobody knows it all, and in the end knowledge is infinite. Those that say otherwise (stop climbing the mountain)....

 

[microstrip]

You can of course find examples of what you describe but your caveat "used correctly" is the essential point and you better watch the input impedance of the preamp the dac is driving (across the entire frequency range) or distortion will sky rocket versus transistors.

Although it can be a problem with power amplifiers, very seldom an issue with preamplfiers. Preamplifiers normally do not have low input impedance. People use them also to "adapt" to the impedance to that of the input power amplifier.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Also sometimes you indeed are, that creates a positive bias

Good - this hobby should live on positive bias - preferably long timed. It is why we should not care about negative opinion makers.

 

[Pb Blimp]

Hey guys, lets be nice. But I see the issue, you can't say this or that as fact, it has happened before here. We really need to say IMO, or I think. It is the way it is worded (as a fact) that winds folk up. IMO of course..... we are all learning, nobody knows it all, and in the end knowledge is infinite. Those that say otherwise (stop climbing the mountain)....

There aren't many on this Forum but a couple usual suspects make every post as a factual statement. Once you know who they are its simple to just ignore them except when they are clearly relating a personal opinion as fact and its contrary to a personal opinion you have just made. Then it's annoying; laughable, but annoying nonetheless.

 

[awsmone]

Yes that's the room I was referring to. It was underwhelming in the extreme. Come on MSB, get the rest of the gear right. I am presuming the speakers are at fault here?

There were better sounding rooms at less than half that budget. There were other rooms that were also disappointing at Munich, and some surprises. And the sound didn't always relate to the cost either.

I think SGR and MSB have a commercial connection as SGR is an Australian company that also handle MSB

I assume there is some synergy of purpose there

I know nothing about SGR speakers other than that , but they have made amplifiers for a long time