Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[Maril555]

Beautiful room, well thought out ! How large is it ? There should alway be a small asian man standing next to horn speakers, so we can get an idea of size !

35x18x9 ft
The bass cabinet is 1m cube

 

[bonzo75]

In fact the Duo XD onwards use Class D amplifiers and the incoming signal is not necessarily from one's SET - it could be at line level from the preamp - user's choice.

Certainly there are very many more adjustments within the XD version compared with earlier ones - whether that's a good thing or not is debatable. One can adjust through XD the bass frequency levels quite comprehensively. Unfortunately (unlike Dirac Live, RoomPerfect, etc) there's no "auto flatten" facility offered, so measurements have to be taken separately by REW and the resultant curve can be referred to in order to amend the XD software's flat line in order to compensate for the anomalies highlighted by REW.

Although Dirac offers a simple auto-adjust feature, I don't like using any DSP that's built into the main full-range amp as it adversely affects the top end, despite this top end not actually being adjusted. Sadly the entire audio signal has to endure the processor and some of Avantgarge's renowned goosebump factor is lost whenever I've used this type of DSP. With XD, this problem doesn't exist as ithe DSP is entirely within the sub's bass section electronics.

Personally I moved away from SETs after many years and auditioned at home a dozen ss amps of various flavours. You may be horrified that I chose a Class D main amp over all the others. I was not looking to "mimic" the SET sound, but to find an equally or more satisfying sound from my speakers. I was expecting a Class A to win the contest but surprisingly I was more convinced by a SOTA Class D - at a fraction the price of some others I tested.

i can understand why those who like class D like duos. It is consistent

 

[Maril555]

T

In fact the Duo XD onwards use Class D amplifiers and the incoming signal is not necessarily from one's SET - it could be at line level from the preamp - user's choice.

Certainly there are very many more adjustments within the XD version compared with earlier ones - whether that's a good thing or not is debatable. One can adjust through XD the bass frequency levels quite comprehensively. Unfortunately (unlike Dirac Live, RoomPerfect, etc) there's no "auto flatten" facility offered, so measurements have to be taken separately by REW and the resultant curve can be referred to in order to amend the XD software's flat line in order to compensate for the anomalies highlighted by REW.

Although Dirac offers a simple auto-adjust feature, I don't like using any DSP that's built into the main full-range amp as it adversely affects the top end, despite this top end not actually being adjusted. Sadly the entire audio signal has to endure the processor and some of Avantgarge's renowned goosebump factor is lost whenever I've used this type of DSP. With XD, this problem doesn't exist as ithe DSP is entirely within the sub's bass section electronics.

Personally I moved away from SETs after many years and auditioned at home a dozen ss amps of various flavours. You may be horrified that I chose a Class D main amp over all the others. I was not looking to "mimic" the SET sound, but to find an equally or more satisfying sound from my speakers. I was expecting a Class A to win the contest but surprisingly I was more convinced by a SOTA Class D - at a fraction the price of some others I tested.

The fundamentals remain though, two
Different type of driver loading and amplification

 

[Lagonda]

35x18x9 ft
The bass cabinet is 1m cube

Nice size too !

 

[adyc]

I had nothing to do today and was bored at my office, so I decided to just go to the dealer because the owner is going to be there. Played around with toe in, speaker distance and modified the listening chair in the showroom so that my ear cannal is at exactly 110 cm from floor when sitting. WOW… what an undeniable improvement again!!! I really fell in love with this speaker, every little tweaks matter A LOT, sometimes for the worse making the sound really brash but a lot of times for the better when I just follow Todd’s direction…

We then decided to play around with cables, firstly I unplugged the RCA from the pre to Spacehorns and instead use speaker wire from the iTron to the Spacehorns just like Todd suggested and as a result we were in audio nirvana…. a lot more tauter bass and a lot more control, lots of improvement in overall imaging too…and off course we refuse to settle there, the dealer whip out his speaker cable collection and I did too….Siltech, Goebel and Esprit joined the battle….unbelievable result!! None of the megabucks speaker cable performed!!!! These were so bad we couldn’t stand it at all, initially we thought the megabucks cables need time to settle down but after a few songs on each cables we knew these megabucks speaker cable will never settle or perform right doesn’t matter how much time we are willing to give. It was so unbearable to listen to and was too obvious, we just hated these….we switched back to the very thin and flimsy stock speaker/jumper cable that came stock with the Trio G3 and we were all in heaven again…….We were all staring at each other in disbelief but it is what it is….Off course I am happy that I don’t have to spend my money on new speaker cable but still, the experience was weird….Now I understand what @Hear Here meant when he said he is happy with inexpensive Duelund cables on his AG, I made another appointment with the owner of the dealership to meet up again on Sunday to try my Duelund cable from my car audio…

After the dust has settled and we sat down, I took the opportunity to discuss with the intention of cutting a deal with the owner of the dealership. He told me he cannot decide on the trade in price right now because he still needs the speaker for Indonesian High End Audio Show (IHEAC) 2023 which will be held on 8th-10th November. He was so impressed by the G70+Ongaku combo on the Trio G3 so he instead wanted to borrow my Ongaku for the show because his Kondo gear couldn’t make it in time for the show, off course I am more than happy to oblige… The owner of Avantgarde Acoustic will be attending the show, so I am not sure if he will be happy listening to Ongaku instead of his iTron during the upcoming show

As for me, end of this year cannot come soon enough…I think the speaker won’t be in my home until December because even my new room is not fully done yet by now…..but WOW..this is how it feel to find an endgame system after wasting hundreds of thousands dollars keep on rolling my gears and never be truly happy. The feeling is…..calming and peaceful, never felt this way before in the audio world and I have been here for decades….

View attachment 116931

What are the black marks on the left mid and bass horns?

 

[Hear Here]

Here is what Roy Gregory had to say about the Duo's i his "pre"-review of the AG Duo GT.

"In the past I’ve always struggled with previous versions of the Duo, ultimately finding the system integration too flawed for their obvious strengths to overcome my frustration with the low-end’s constant struggle to keep up with the rest of the range." ... "What has really transformed this speaker from an impressive but frustratingly uneven performer into a balanced and exceptionally capable system is the successful integration of the bass. Without that, the Duo GT could so easily have been all mouth and no trousers. As it is, the bass is more tuneable, higher quality and more easy to work with than ever before, finally allowing it to keep pace with not just the horns but the current amplification driving them"

It seems that Roy would tend to agree with Ked on the prior versions of the Duo. However, this doesn't seem to be the case for the new Duo GT.

It is very hard, if not improssible, to listen to a speaker in a system at someone's house or worse yet at a show and get a real sense of what that speaker is capable of doing. You have to get your hands dirty and experiment. Either with changing our some components to see what impact that has or with playing with positioning to understand the impact that has. Once you have spent some time with it then you can make categorical statements about bass integration or treble performance.

@Uwiik has done this. First just listening to what the dealer had on offer. Then moving his gear which he is very familiar with into the picture. Then comparing iTon to his gear in the same setup. Then asking the dealer to change the setup to move the bass bins to the outside fo the Trio. Then comparing Solid state (CH Precision). and finally, now he is exploring cables and really playing with positioning of the listening seat and speakers. At this point he is really starting to get a grip on what the Trio is capable of doing.

There is no doubt the Duo does not have the same performance level as the Trio. if it did then why buy a Trio? Perhaps there are other speakers that can outperform a Duo at the same or less cost. I don't know. But unless you have spent time actually moving the speaker and exploring it's potential then it is unfair to make statements that it is a horrible speaker.

Yes, I read Gregory's preview back in March and I replied on another forum as follows:

"When Gregory describes in unflattering terms "previous generation Duos", he seems to be talking about ones built long ago that have separate mid and top horn enclosures, in fact probably pre-Omega. For the last 2 versions, the Duo has the top driver built into the main enclosure and the latest XD version has DSP to allow room correction for the bass. He claims that these earlier versions lack integration between the bass and the horn section. I think he's well out of touch because every other reviewer seems to think that problem was long since fixed by Avantgarde. The XD version has incredibly versatile settings to allow a seamless transfer, even by offering numerous different crossover technologies (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley) and comprehensive frequency response adjustment possibilities."

Having said that, I find the XD software particularly difficult to use. The software doesn't offer an "auto-adjust" in the way Dirac, RoomPerfect, etc do. Perhaps the manual method is better in the hands of a professional, but it's beyond me to the extent I'm likely to make matters worse than leaving everything as Default – which is what I do with no concerns regarding sound quality!

The review makes no mention of this speaker's potential to accommodate a streamer module, making it a truly great choice for anyone using digital only and not wanting to clutter up their home with a pile of single-use boxes. However this review seems to be more of a preview, after which Gregory is hoping to get a pair of GTs into his own audition rooms, hopefully for a more in depth review. Hopefully Stereophile will be reviewing them soon too.

Reading the GT's Manual (downloadable from the AG site), it seems that its bass DSP is somewhat simpler than the complex XD software. Probably no bad thing. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing it in the flesh. It's a lot of dosh, but could be very good value in its fully-fledged active version, including DAC, DSP on bass, amps and streamer module. If they get a good control app (hopefully they'll get a BluOS license) and it's Roon compatible, then perhaps excellent value."

Yes, it seems Gregory and Bonzo must be chums and have some unfounded hate for older Duos, seemingly based on ignorance of this model's development since the 1990s. Fact is (I believe), the Duo is the best selling model within the Avangarde range of excellent horns.

 

[Hear Here]

Thanks for the photos. I presume this is a dedicated music listening room and not a family reception or living room. Sorry, not my cup of tea whatever the quality of sound or construction, but only because I value the aesthetics of my living room and the views from my windows.

 

[Maril555]

Thanks for the photos. I presume this is a dedicated music listening room and not a family reception or living room. Sorry, not my cup of tea whatever the quality of sound or construction, but only because I value the aesthetics of my living room and the views from my windows.

Dedicated room it is

 

[MRJAZZ]

For those who cannot get trios, I see no reason to get the smaller brother. Same is the case with Tune Audio Anima and hORNs Universum. I think people are too used to the logic that if we cannot get Dagostino 400, we get the 250, or if we cannot get the ARC Ref 10, we get the lower model. Or in speakers, those who cannot get a big Wilson get the Sasha. I get the logic on the others, definitely not on the three horns brands mentioned above. For smaller speakers than trio better to get Devore Orangutan O96 or Audionec Evo 2, and you can still run with SETs. Diesis at a higher price but still WAF. No reason to think we have to buy the smaller speaker of the same brand

What's your current opinion on the best model of the hORNS Universum, compared to other horn based systems you like?

 

[sbnx]

Hello everyone, I think some of this discussion belongs in the thread "what is the best horn system in the world today...." I love that we are discussing horns and am ok with the divergence into the land of the AG Duo. But moving into other manufacturers seems to belong in the thread I linked to below.

What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

Although perhaps not in the same league dynamically as the largest horns in bigger rooms, here is a hybrid horn design from a respected German producer that is space efficient, will easily fill any smaller to medium sized listening room and is relatively affordable. The model designation is the...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[sbnx]

I have an idea for the forum. This would require some coding but would be a HUGE improvement.

Add a tickbox in everypost that only the originator of the thread or moderator can check. The purpose of the tickbox is to indicate that this is a side discussion and not germane to the primary topic in which the thread was opened. The next step would be to allow anyone to select an option "Don't show side topics" and then when they start reading a thread all of the posts that are ticked are not shown.

Imagine how much easier it would be for people to catch up or filter through information more quickly.

Maybe I should have put this in another thread.

 

[treitz3]

Probably. You are off topic in your own thread. LOL.

Tom

 

[adyc]

Hi Uwiik, what is your dealer room size?

 

[Hear Here]

T

The fundamentals remain though, two
Different type of driver loading and amplification

But doesn't that apply to all hybrid speaker systems including the AG Trio, most Martin Logans and all other systems with self-powered bass sections? As far as I'm aware there's nothing inherently wrong in using a Class D amps in the area where Class D particilar excells - the bass - otherwise these highly respected brands wouldn't take this route.

 

[bonzo75]

But doesn't that apply to all hybrid speaker systems including the AG Trio, most Martin Logans and all other systems with self-powered bass sections? As far as I'm aware there's nothing inherently wrong in using a Class D amps in the area where Class D particilar excells - the bass - otherwise these highly respected brands wouldn't take this route.

on trios it comes at a much lower hz. Generally I have found 100 and below I am not sensitive, but 200 and above definitely.

ML hybrids used cost 5k, duo mezzos cross the price were where much better speakers are available below.

And what ML does very well, is they dial back the bass. It has way superior midrange to the duos, and the bass is playing along without being conspicuous. No one buys these hybrids for bass. Duos have a forward sound that has the negatives non horn people dislike about horns,, and the out of sync bass is in your face.

horns universum are much superior in integration though not for pop and rock, and they have a lower model similar to duos at used price of under 10k which will not my choice is superior to duos

 

[Maril555]

on trios it comes at a much lower hz. Generally I have found 100 and below I am not sensitive, but 200 and above definitely.

ML hybrids used at 5k, duo mezzos cross the price were where much better speakers are available below.

And what ML does very well, is they dial back the bass. It has way superior midrange to the duos, and the bass is playing along without being conspicuous. No one buys these hybrids for bass. Duos have a forward sound that has the negatives non horn people dislike about horns,, and the out of sync bass is in your face

Ditto

 

[Ron Resnick]

The fundamentals remain though, two
Different type of amplification

As far as I'm aware there's nothing inherently wrong in using a Class D amps in the area where Class D particilar excells - the bass - otherwise these highly respected brands wouldn't take this route.

I think mixing amplifier topologies is another religious question. If you hear a problem mixing amplifiers, then it's a problem. If you don't hear a problem mixing amplifiers, then it's a solution.

For me personally tube amplifiers for the midrange/treble, and solid-state amplifiers for the bass is a solution.

 

[Maril555]

I think mixing amplifier topologies is another religious question. If you hear a problem mixing amplifiers, then it's a problem. If you don't hear a problem mixing amplifiers, then it's a solution.

For me personally tube amplifiers for the midrange/treble, and solid-state amplifiers for the bass is a solution.

I’ve tried both (SS on bass/ tube Mid/HF via active x-over) and tube with passive x-over, and there was a clear advantage for the latter

 

[Maril555]

Dare I say “more natural”???!!!
Oops, just came out that way

 

[the sound of Tao]

I’ve tried both (SS on bass/ tube Mid/HF via active x-over) and tube with passive x-over, and there was a clear advantage for the latter

If you are cohesion sensitive and also listen to the sound more often as a whole then a sudden noticeable uncharacteristic shift in the timbre of instruments in transition from the bass or mid bass or up to the mids essentially highlights that the whole sound doesn’t come together as essentially true or have rightness. If there is a disconnect then the whole thing comes across as disparate and artificial (or not natural)… so typically say going from SET in the mids down to SS in the lower mid bass or bass if there is an uncharacteristic shift in presentation we’re there might be elasticity and flow up higher and it’s all suddenly in relationship too taut or dry or emphatic it’s like staring at a tonally more all over the place sedimentary rock face rather than at a more seamless igneous one.

I guess if someone dominantly listens to sound analytically or to music that is primarily artificial it’s not an issue because you can still be drawn to admire two (seemingly disparate) qualities occurring in a disconnected soundfield but an out of character clash within the timbre of individual acoustic instruments creates a disconnect that jars and holds you out from the presentation then coming together as natural, connected or believable.