tima's DIY RCM

redandgold

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Jun 3, 2018
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Dear Neil,

thank you for your reply. Let me shortly answer you:
For me the Tim's system is the ideal solution so I will follow hin buying both Elmasonic US baths. The P 120H and the Easy 120H. I have no doubt to your statement to be the most effective high quality solution. The 132 kHz bath is actually no topic.

Comparing to your industrial standard spraying solution the Elmasonic is the easier, convinient und cheaper solution.

Your calculation is convincing that the rinsing bath will not contain to much Tergitol to be a residue problem. You are wright, the concentration should be too low to make the records noisy again.

Thank you for your link to german amazon-webpage, I allready ordered the pipettes now. Should be easy, exact and clean solution without direct contact to Tergitol.

Right now I am searching a good quality DIW. I bought this american TDS meter which was praised having good quality:


I measured my usual destilled water using at my Gläss and was shocked by a value of 6. Tomorrow I will get 3 different bottels of DIW. Hope one bottle is close to 0.

The filtering project makes me headache. Because the pump/filter solution is from the USA, importing this is too expensive. I thought I can go to an aquarium shop and buy a complete system. No way. They had over 10 systems, but they start with min. 40 litres. This pump will such empty my whole bath. Do you have adresses for parts purchasing in Germany/Europe too?

Best regards

Andreas
 

redandgold

Well-Known Member
Jun 3, 2018
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Dear Tim,

great to hear from you as you give me all this worthy informations. I am aware you cleaning system is the most expensive system cleaning your records. But you wouldn't do if the results are not convincing. On my list will be both Elmasonic and the Kuzma RD motor. Unfortunately as first step budgetwise I have to start with one Kuzma. But asap I will buy the second Kuzma. By the way at Q8 I asked you if you feel the 1" distance of the the Kuzma distance holders is sufficient. Did you ever try with bigger distance?

It is true, the handling efforts are really important. Making the process too complicate and compley holds the risk of damaging your expensive records and getting ugly marks on them. Noone wants this.

If I understand you correctly even you with your experience have to think over dis-/advantage of IPA. Maybe I will start only with Tergitol as surfactand and detergent and after some time I will try adding e.g. 250 ml as 2% IPA. If this does not bring better sound quality, I will leave it again.

But there was a order filling it in: Is it better to first fill in IPA or better to start with the Tergitol?

O.K. I start without heat. My TDS meter measures also the temperature and I will get experience how warm the bath gets after 20 min cleaning.
 

Neil.Antin

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2021
320
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Dear Neil,

thank you for your reply. Let me shortly answer you:
For me the Tim's system is the ideal solution so I will follow hin buying both Elmasonic US baths. The P 120H and the Easy 120H. I have no doubt to your statement to be the most effective high quality solution. The 132 kHz bath is actually no topic.

Comparing to your industrial standard spraying solution the Elmasonic is the easier, convinient und cheaper solution.

Your calculation is convincing that the rinsing bath will not contain to much Tergitol to be a residue problem. You are wright, the concentration should be too low to make the records noisy again.

Thank you for your link to german amazon-webpage, I allready ordered the pipettes now. Should be easy, exact and clean solution without direct contact to Tergitol.

Right now I am searching a good quality DIW. I bought this american TDS meter which was praised having good quality:


I measured my usual destilled water using at my Gläss and was shocked by a value of 6. Tomorrow I will get 3 different bottels of DIW. Hope one bottle is close to 0.

The filtering project makes me headache. Because the pump/filter solution is from the USA, importing this is too expensive. I thought I can go to an aquarium shop and buy a complete system. No way. They had over 10 systems, but they start with min. 40 litres. This pump will such empty my whole bath. Do you have adresses for parts purchasing in Germany/Europe too?

Best regards

Andreas
Andreas,

1. First - in the back of the book the very last Table XXV, UCM Pump-Filter System Parts List, provides a complete parts list for 3-different filter options.

2. For the pump, which will be 12VDC, you have 2-options: either will work. You need to mount these on a block of wood with rubber grommets. They are both be a bit noisy, but the Seaflo may be noisier.

-The better Shurflo SLV - SLV Fresh Water Pump - Shurflo.eu
-The cheaper Chinese SeaFlo - Seaflo 12V 4.3 LPM Wasser System Pumpe : Amazon.de: Sports & Outdoors

3. For the 12VDC pump you need a decent power supply - MEAN WELL™ GST60A12-P1J 12V 5 Amp 60W - MEAN WELL GST60A12-P1J Tischnetzteil, Festspannung 12 V/DC 5A 60W : Amazon.de: Computer & Accessories. This is for universal AC voltage input, and you may need an adapter for your AC power but being sold in Germany it should come supplied.

4. You will need a simple wire converter to connect the power supply which comes standard with 2.1mm male to whatever the pump is terminated with - it is probably just bare wires. just be careful of the polarity cablepelado DC Female Connector 5.5 x 2.1 mm Black: Amazon.de: Electronics & Photo,

5. The Pentek 10" filter housing with 3/4" connections can be purchased here: Pentek Water filter housing 3 G standard, 10 inch, with mounting device | Kwerk Online Shop. Make sure you buy the wrench - buy 2 they are kind of flimsy and just tape them together.

7. For filters, contact this company PP Polypropylene Filter Cartridges | Dorsan (dorsanfiltration.com). You want 10" with DOE connections, 0.2-micron for the cleaning tank and you can use 0.45 or 1.0 micron on the rinse tank. Let them know what filter housing you are using, and they should know exactly what model to sell you.

8. For your installation, for now you can operate w/o the filter inlet pressure gauge - or you can search & source the parts from Amazon. As the book states: Monitor pump motor housing temperature. When hot >120°F, replace the filter.

9. There is a bunch of small parts, fittings for the housing Quickun Plastic Hose Fitting 3/8" Barb to 3/4" Male Thread White Connector Adapter (Pack of 5) : Amazon.de: Business, Industry & Science, for the hose sourcing map Braided Reinforced PVC Hose 10 mm ID 15 mm OD 1 m Transparent High Pressure for Water Hose : Amazon.de: Garden you will need 3 pieces of 1-M each, and clamps. In Table XXV, there is a detailed list - just work down the list of parts in either the low or medium column.

Good luck,
Neil
 
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Neil.Antin

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Jul 9, 2021
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I measured my usual destilled water using at my Gläss and was shocked by a value of 6. Tomorrow I will get 3 different bottels of DIW. Hope one bottle is close to 0.

6 ppm is not terrible. My last bottle of distilled water was 2.6-ppm. Basic rule of thumb is to replace/refresh the bath at not more than 10-ppm which the remaining residue from as much as 3nml is less than the surface roughness of the basic record material (0.01-micron) - see the book Table VII Residue Thickness Microns from Water Residue
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,830
6,883
1,400
the Upper Midwest
On my list will be both Elmasonic and the Kuzma RD motor. Unfortunately as first step budgetwise I have to start with one Kuzma.

I have not tried this, however you could pick up your RD that is over the wash tank and place it over the rinse tank as it is light in weight. That would mean unplugging it from its power supply and clearing the filter return hose from the RD frame, then positioning it over the rinse tank. Something of an inconvenience, but I believe it could be possible.

By the way at Q8 I asked you if you feel the 1" distance of the the Kuzma distance holders is sufficient. Did you ever try with bigger distance?

The distance between records is a function of the width and number of Kuzma pucks placed between them. When cleaning 5 records I place 2 pucks between records. That equals ~1.1 inches or ~28mm between records. I see that as the minimum distance for effective cleaning and the reason I don't clean more than a maximum of 5 records at a time.

Greater space between records is fine, so if cleaning fewer I'd encourage using more pucks. You may or may not get a equal number of pucks between records, but that is okay.

Here are 4 records on a spindle with 3 pucks between them. This puts the leftmost record closest to the front of the tank very close to where the curvature of the tank wall begins. It also shows less space between that record and the tank wall than between the other records. So there is a tradeoff.

As discussed earlier, I want to assure each record has free space between its edge and the tank wall to allow the records to turn freely. The puck backstop at the motor end of the spindle can be adjusted up to a point. It is a relatively fine adjustment likewise to avoid the rearmost record from contacting the tank wall.

DSC02006.JPG
wash

DSC02013.JPG
rinse.

In both photos I probably could have moved the back stop puck a bit closer to the motor to increase the space between the front wall and record.

But there was a order filling it in: Is it better to first fill in IPA or better to start with the Tergitol?

Typically I add the Tergitol then th IPA. I don't think there is a difference which is added first, they both get mixed into water during degas. But I'll defer to an expert if it is otherwise.

One thing to mention as I look at the bottom picture. I suggest using some sort of water proof pan to hold the two tanks. Here we have plastic pans built to fit under washing machines or water heaters. I could not find one the right size at low cost to hold both tanks. I ended up building my own with a wood bottom and short side walls and a water proof tarp folded and stapled to that
 
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redandgold

Well-Known Member
Jun 3, 2018
230
179
148
Andreas,

1. First - in the back of the book the very last Table XXV, UCM Pump-Filter System Parts List, provides a complete parts list for 3-different filter options.

2. For the pump, which will be 12VDC, you have 2-options: either will work. You need to mount these on a block of wood with rubber grommets. They are both be a bit noisy, but the Seaflo may be noisier.

-The better Shurflo SLV - SLV Fresh Water Pump - Shurflo.eu
-The cheaper Chinese SeaFlo - Seaflo 12V 4.3 LPM Wasser System Pumpe : Amazon.de: Sports & Outdoors

3. For the 12VDC pump you need a decent power supply - MEAN WELL™ GST60A12-P1J 12V 5 Amp 60W - MEAN WELL GST60A12-P1J Tischnetzteil, Festspannung 12 V/DC 5A 60W : Amazon.de: Computer & Accessories. This is for universal AC voltage input, and you may need an adapter for your AC power but being sold in Germany it should come supplied.

4. You will need a simple wire converter to connect the power supply which comes standard with 2.1mm male to whatever the pump is terminated with - it is probably just bare wires. just be careful of the polarity cablepelado DC Female Connector 5.5 x 2.1 mm Black: Amazon.de: Electronics & Photo,

5. The Pentek 10" filter housing with 3/4" connections can be purchased here: Pentek Water filter housing 3 G standard, 10 inch, with mounting device | Kwerk Online Shop. Make sure you buy the wrench - buy 2 they are kind of flimsy and just tape them together.

7. For filters, contact this company PP Polypropylene Filter Cartridges | Dorsan (dorsanfiltration.com). You want 10" with DOE connections, 0.2-micron for the cleaning tank and you can use 0.45 or 1.0 micron on the rinse tank. Let them know what filter housing you are using, and they should know exactly what model to sell you.

8. For your installation, for now you can operate w/o the filter inlet pressure gauge - or you can search & source the parts from Amazon. As the book states: Monitor pump motor housing temperature. When hot >120°F, replace the filter.

9. There is a bunch of small parts, fittings for the housing Quickun Plastic Hose Fitting 3/8" Barb to 3/4" Male Thread White Connector Adapter (Pack of 5) : Amazon.de: Business, Industry & Science, for the hose sourcing map Braided Reinforced PVC Hose 10 mm ID 15 mm OD 1 m Transparent High Pressure for Water Hose : Amazon.de: Garden you will need 3 pieces of 1-M each, and clamps. In Table XXV, there is a detailed list - just work down the list of parts in either the low or medium column.

Good luck,
Neil
Thank you for your aid. I will go to order these parts. Probably two times to give both baths equal good filtering. I am not a DIY guy, but will try to assamble all to a nice pump/filter system like Tim has done.
 

redandgold

Well-Known Member
Jun 3, 2018
230
179
148
I have not tried this, however you could pick up your RD that is over the wash tank and place it over the rinse tank as it is light in weight. That would mean unplugging it from its power supply and clearing the filter return hose from the RD frame, then positioning it over the rinse tank. Something of an inconvenience, but I believe it could be possible.
I know for a few months I try to live with this as this spring I want to do another invest of equipment. Not only invonvenient, but also a bit risk to touch the wall with my records.
 

redandgold

Well-Known Member
Jun 3, 2018
230
179
148
The distance between records is a function of the width and number of Kuzma pucks placed between them. When cleaning 5 records I place 2 pucks between records. That equals ~1.1 inches or ~28mm between records. I see that as the minimum distance for effective cleaning and the reason I don't clean more than a maximum of 5 records at a time.

Greater space between records is fine, so if cleaning fewer I'd encourage using more pucks. You may or may not get a equal number of pucks between records, but that is okay.

Here are 4 records on a spindle with 3 pucks between them. This puts the leftmost record closest to the front of the tank very close to where the curvature of the tank wall begins. It also shows less space between that record and the tank wall than between the other records. So there is a tradeoff.

As discussed earlier, I want to assure each record has free space between its edge and the tank wall to allow the records to turn freely. The puck backstop at the motor end of the spindle can be adjusted up to a point. It is a relatively fine adjustment likewise to avoid the rearmost record from contacting the tank wall.
Great to see you photos which makes it easier to follow. If distance with 28mm is enough, it will be my preference with cleaning 5 records in one batch. Makes it faster and more effective, as 1.200 wants to get cleaned a second time after the first Gläss cleaning.

But I guess I will start with 4 records, but the same 2 puck distance to get a feeling for the bath dimensions. As the leftmost records is really close to the wall.
 

redandgold

Well-Known Member
Jun 3, 2018
230
179
148
Typically I add the Tergitol then th IPA. I don't think there is a difference which is added first, they both get mixed into water during degas. But I'll defer to an expert if it is otherwise.

One thing to mention as I look at the bottom picture. I suggest using some sort of water proof pan to hold the two tanks. Here we have plastic pans built to fit under washing machines or water heaters. I could not find one the right size at low cost to hold both tanks. I ended up building my own with a wood bottom and short side walls and a water proof tarp folded and stapled to that
Then i copy you order. I remember at one page in this thread the injection of Tergitol look alike a cloud which has to be solved in DIW.

First I planned to use a tray under each bath to protect the surface of table. But that's true, a leakage would need some more volume of water to contain.
 

Neil.Antin

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2021
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Typically I add the Tergitol then th IPA. I don't think there is a difference which is added first, they both get mixed into water during degas. But I'll defer to an expert if it is otherwise.
When i copy you order. I remember at one page in this thread the injection of Tergitol look alike a cloud which has to be solved in DIW.

You always want to first add the surfactant (i.e. Tergitol) and then add the alcohol and this is addressed in the book: Para XIV.7.5

"Additionally, the sequence of adding nonionic surfactant +IPA to water makes a difference. If you take a small glass container (150-200 mL) and just fill with tap-water, and do the following experiment the following will be observed:

XIV.7.5.a If IPA (2.5% equivalent) is added first and then add the non-ionic surfactant the surfactant does not immediately break-up, it sinks as a solid drop(s). It will go into solution but it needs to be agitated. As it’s agitated, the drop of surfactant break-ups and 'slowly' goes into solution.

XIV.7.5.b If 1-drop of non-ionic surfactant is added first, the drop immediately breaks-up and with some agitation quickly goes into solution."
 

Neil.Antin

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Jul 9, 2021
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Thank you for your aid. I will go to order these parts. Probably two times to give both baths equal good filtering. I am not a DIY guy, but will try to assamble all to a nice pump/filter system like Tim has done.
Sorry if I was not clear, but you want both tanks filtered otherwise you will need to replace the rinse tank bath more frequently and exactly when becomes very subjective. If you do not filter and replace when cloudy or turbid, you waited too long.

Otherwise, assembly is just tightening clamps, tightening the hose-barb fittings to the filter head and tightening the filter head to the filter bowl with the wrench. The filter bowl to the head will need to quite snug, tighten until snug then another 1/8 to 1/4-turn.

When tightening clamps to plastic barb hose fittings (such as pump) do not over-tighten otherwise you can collapse the fitting. No harm with the filter plastic fittings that are easily replaceable, but not with the pump. Tighten till snug such that the hose does not rotate on the fitting.

When you first assemble - fill only with DIW, operate and check for leaks. If you get some leaks - and you may - secure the pump and just tighten not more than 1/4 rotation at a time.

Also, as specified in the book: Note: After assembly of a new pump/filter system, operate at 30°C/86°F to 40°C/104°F for 1-2 hours (w/o records or ultrasonics) to clean the new system. If the fluid becomes cloudy or TDS is out of specification (>10 ppm), refresh the fluid and repeat until the
fluid remains clear and TDS is <5 ppm (or what the DIW initially measures if > or equal to 5-ppm). The system is now ready for record cleaning.

Good Luck,

Neil
 
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tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,830
6,883
1,400
the Upper Midwest
XIV.7.5.a If IPA (2.5% equivalent) is added first and then add the non-ionic surfactant the surfactant does not immediately break-up, it sinks as a solid drop(s). It will go into solution but it needs to be agitated. As it’s agitated, the drop of surfactant break-ups and 'slowly' goes into solution.

This is a good example. When I wrote: "I don't think there is a difference which is added first, they both get mixed into water during degas.", I was incorrect that there is no difference. If surfactant and IPA are added in either order to a fresh tank that is then degassed for 5-10 minutes, is that enough agitation to accomplish adequate mixture?
 

redandgold

Well-Known Member
Jun 3, 2018
230
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6 ppm is not terrible. My last bottle of distilled water was 2.6-ppm. Basic rule of thumb is to replace/refresh the bath at not more than 10-ppm which the remaining residue from as much as 3nml is less than the surface roughness of the basic record material (0.01-micron) - see the book Table VII Residue Thickness Microns from Water Residue
After owning I was interested in knowing the water quality. First I measured my home top water. First I measured 68, which is not really to prevent chalky deposit in tube and machines. Sunday I measured 97. I wondered that water quality is so variant.

After this experiment I tested three different DIW:

IMG_6937.JPG
This DIW is used for my Gläss, the value 6 was not convincing.

IMG_6938.JPG
This destilled water measured only 1, is very cheap (1,8 EUR for 5 litres) and easy locally to purchase. Maybe my favorite.

IMG_6939.JPG
This is the best water with valua 0! Three times more costly and I have to order in the internet.
 

Neil.Antin

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Jul 9, 2021
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This is a good example. When I wrote: "I don't think there is a difference which is added first, they both get mixed into water during degas.", I was incorrect that there is no difference. If surfactant and IPA are added in either order to a fresh tank that is then degassed for 5-10 minutes, is that enough agitation to accomplish adequate mixture?
Tim,

Cannot say for sure. If surfactant is added after IPA, it will sink to the bottom to the tank (on top of the UT transducers) and then begin to slowly dissolve. When the tank is energized, for sure, near the transducers the surfactant will dissolve. At that point how well it dissolves through the tank depends on how much air is released. The bubbles as they float up provide some agitation. The ultrasonics themselves develop horizontal standing waves/layers in the tank, and while sweep frequency helps to minimize the layers - they are still there. However, once you turn the pump-on, it drawing suction from the bottom of the tank and then discharging near the middle for sure will equally mix. The only fly in the ointment is that if the surfactant concentration is higher than when equally mixed at the pump suction, more foam gets produced. Its only temporary, but it could alarm some people.

Take care,
Neil

PS/At mega-sonics (MHz) which is used for semi-conductor cleaning, there is no longer really any cavitation - it's all about acoustic streaming, and now the mega sonics produce flow.
 
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Neil.Antin

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This destilled water measured only 1, is very cheap (1,8 EUR for 5 litres) and easy locally to purchase. Maybe my favorite.
This is the best water with valua 0! Three times more costly and I have to order in the internet.

Recommend using the 1-ppm water. Your TDS meter HM-TDS-3 only reads out in 1-ppm increments. 0 is not zero, it is likely anywhere between 0.1 and 0.5-ppm. The cheaper water while measuring 1-ppm can actually read probably 0.6 to 1.5-ppm. The 1-ppm difference is consequential. But its what's makes you happy.
 
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tony22

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When I put a fresh batch together in the tank I run 2, 20 minute rounds of ultrasonic action - 40 KHz, then 80 KHz. There is no visible evidence of surfactant in the tank well before that total time has passed. Hoping that means it is well dissolved.
 

Neil.Antin

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Jul 9, 2021
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Given the length of this thread and difficulty searching it, I added links on its first post to salient topics such a Parts List and My Process and more. Feel free to pass this along to interested readers.
Tim:

Awesome!

Neil
 
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