The rear wall - friend or foe?

[fbhifi]

Marc, I looked a pics of your room in another thread and considering your room characteristics I don’t think the Golden Ratio approach is applicable. If you are not experiencing any frequency anomalies- like bass peaks/humps or noticeable suck-outs at any frequency I would probably leave well enough alone. You could go to all the trouble and expense of building a rear divising wall only to end up creating a frequency response problem you don’t currently have.

 

[spiritofmusic]

FB, sure, it had crossed my mind.

All I have is my previous room to compare, 27x22x13, compared to my current 18x38-48x9. Pretty much the same system.

And there's no comparison actually. Things now are a quantum leap improved, and that's no exaggeration. From a symettrical space, to no glass, carpeted floor, eaves steels at 7' intervals acting as a break to eaves reflections, rear alcove lp/cd shelving acting as diffusors.

I am acutely aware, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Bass has been a little harder to pin down here than in my old space, but w the help of trusted ears and opinions, I've made great strides recently.

No, my dilemma is really predicated on the fact I'm looking at moving to high efficiency horns, possibly going for lower power triodes, eliminating 300W Class D active subs, and fretting a little as to how this might work out in a room like mine which is 3-4x larger than a typical UK lounge.

 

[Folsom]

Which horns?

 

[spiritofmusic]

They're new to the market, and promise an awful lot, with a Le Cleach horn mated to a field coil woofer, Azzolina Audio Hadron.

I've been searching for a horn in a package that both doesn't overwhelm my space and promises fast extended bass while eliminating Class D active, and on paper at least, this is the one. Indeed, maybe the only one. I'll only move from my Zus if the Hadrons can really deliver on multiple fronts.

 

[DaveC]

I agree that a certain amount of “desirable” vibration may be part of a turntable’s design, possibly in terms of its suspension. But I take as intuitively obvious the proposition that we do not want our turntables bathed in random, loudspeaker-generated vibrational energy.

The loudspeaker is one half of the feedback mechanism I'm talking about, so it's vibrational energy is anything but random. Sound from the speakers gets converted back to electrical energy in the components and then back to the speakers. Especially tubes, which can actually serve as transducers themselves, and any analog playback device. Special racks, footers, tube dampers, etc simply "tune" the feedback. If you consider that in recording music reverb trails may be truncated, and the feedback process I mentioned adds back some reverb the ear expects to hear and considers natural sounding, it could be an improvement. IMO a lot of the "magic" of certain systems is at least partially due to certain feedback mechanisms that positively modify the harmonic content and reverb of the recording. And it a lot of it is preserving what's there too...

In any case, maybe something to try out if you build the soundproof isolation room for your gear. The results might be interesting...

 

[DaveC]

They're new to the market, and promise an awful lot, with a Le Cleach horn mated to a field coil woofer, Azzolina Audio Hadron.

I've been searching for a horn in a package that both doesn't overwhelm my space and promises fast extended bass while eliminating Class D active, and on paper at least, this is the one. Indeed, maybe the only one. I'll only move from my Zus if the Hadrons can really deliver on multiple fronts.

Nice, I have a LeCleach midrange horn. I still use active bass though, I really prefer modern woofers with stiff cones and huge motors.

 

[fbhifi]

Marc, I would certainly wait and get the new speakers and amps in place and hearing what’s going on before doing any remodeling. Of course, try the new equipment with and without the subs before drawing any conclusions.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Dave, field coil bass is a new one for me. I have a very strong mental reference point of AG Duos, having heard them dozens of times at Blue58 sounding absolutely sublime. So the demo will be as much the Hadrons in their own right versus compared to the Duos data point. I've also got as strong recollection of the various Cessaro Liszt demos I've been to, and an excellent Apogee Duettas one. These are the spkrs that have most left above average impressions w me, and the ones the Hadrons I'm hoping will emulate, and beat.

 

[spiritofmusic]

FB, yes agreed. Its just that logic seems to dictate an 800 sq ft/5000 cub ft room like mine might struggle with 1.25W tubes, even on high efficiency horns. Luckily I'm due to hear them in a very large space, so I'll be closer to an answer soon.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Dave, re tweaks "tuning" sound, I'm sure we can all agree there's a lot of truth in this. The only way I can try to hear "thru" a tweak to see if it's more neutral than another, is to play a variety of music, and see if I can glean an "overlay" or tonal homogenization. Usually apparent as a pleasant euphonic boost in the lower mids, upper bass.

I'm certainly aware of this w certain footers, incl v highly regarded and pricey ones much loved by some members here, and a footers system I trialled for my spkrs.

The footers I've eventually gone for under gear and spkrs certainly didn't wow immediately on the bass warmth thing, but have proved to be much less imposing of character than the ones I chose not to keep.

 

[Folsom]

I don’t believe the amplifier class for bass is problem. But your inability to move subs around for sure is going to fight you.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Folsom, certainly if I stick w my Zus, a very practical direction of improvement could be at the very least replacing the integral Zu subs with dedicated outboard ones, initially two up front, maybe four in total around the room.

If my delving into a horns approach comes to naught, I'll v seriously consider it. I am v aware the Zu subs are not class leading in any way.

 

[microstrip]

I am not a measurement person but I would never consider such change without looking at a few measurements of the room. Dimensions and shape are only part of the problem, materials and building technique are equally important in the bass. A wall can be either reflective or absorptive. Remember nulls created by reflection can be more annoying than peaks.

 

[Folsom]

I think moving to tubes and horns will provide you with a sea of gear trials, in a good way. Fleawatt tube amps can often be relatively inexpensive so you can try out a number. There is lots of old school mythos to enjoy.

Unlike Micro, I take no fear in jumping in without SPL measurements. HOWEVER I will calculate wavelengths to help me work on setup. I haven’t ran into a situation where a node or peak was noticeable enough to try and attack with room measuring. That does not mean I stay away from anything as far as treatment. I actually like to use wave software to model behavior. It is usually more relevant to my needs, producing great results.

 

[Solypsa]

As I read through the various replies ( much good advice ) I'm not sure if anyone mentioned the efforts required to reduce the 'room volume' in meaningful ways for suwoofer frequencies...complex and massive wall structures....

 

[JackD201]

Hi Marc remember that field coil drivers have adjustable magnetic power so they are, in a way, "active". I would worry more about whether the flea power will be enough for your mid and tweeter horns because I don't know if you go nuts with the volume control every now and then nor do I know if you play a steady diet of music with power sucking instruments like electric bass guitars. For your size room given the conditions I mentioned, you might want to look at output tubes that put out a little more power than say 45s or 46s. .

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jack, now we're at the nub of it. I'm actually due to hear these horns in a room even bigger than mine, and the host will have tried 1.25W 46 and 20W 211 amps on them. He'll be very well placed to make the verdict.

For me Jack, it's not absolute volume that's critical, I can't often torture poor Ra downstairs w Miles "On The Corner" LOL. No, it's the ability to have fully saturated tone colours and palpable texture, and genuine heft and insistence in the bass, even at moderate levels, maintaining ability to scale dynamically as authentically as possible.

I'm not looking to shake the roof timbers, just have a full and effortless sound. With the chance to headbang every so often.

I'm fast deciding not to partition my space, it's so relaxed with a great vibe. For the potential upside of better bass presentation, I'm wary to take the risk of more nodes, rear reflections etc.

 

[JackD201]

I love 45s and 46s precisely because of their color and texture. The head bang thing is what I worry about. We may not do it very often but we have to admit, there are days.... LOL Anyhow depending on how hard you do bang your noggin' it could very well be that 46s are enough and that the FCD will bbe able to keep in lockstep. If not, it's okay. You have a lot of viable alternatives.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jack, well I love Ravel AND Rush, it would be so much easier to only run audiophile smooth pap LOL.

So, unlimited headroom is nice for no impediment to orchestral flow on Mars, and Immigrant Song. The major reason why MikeL didn't stick w his Lamms.

For me, not as critical as the music nicely cooking at moderately loud levels, a stew full of flavours that makes your head spin.

 

[JackD201]

NO!!!!!!!!!! Not the smooth pap!!!!!! LOL