The musician amongst us....weigh in.

[DaveyF]

Most of us (all of us?) on this forum are "passionate" about music. We go to great lengths to reproduce the 'live' sound in our homes and we spend large amounts of monies to do so. The love of music is most certainly one of the things that I think we can all say we have in common... and particularly so here.
Tonight, I played several of my guitars and amps and I have to tell you, the experience of making your own music cannot be beat...at least for me. Listening to others play is great and HIGHLY fulfilling, BUT it's not the same as bringing out the music in yourself, at least IMHO.
Who here has aspired to play an instrument or plays an instrument? If you haven't tried to play music on an instrument of your choice...I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT. I strongly suspect that some of the greatest a'philes could/would make some of the greatest musicians. ( after all we typically know what to listen for and how to listen, IMO).
Weigh in guys...

 

[Bill Hart]

Most of us (all of us?) on this forum are "passionate" about music. We go to great lengths to reproduce the 'live' sound in our homes and we spend large amounts of monies to do so. The love of music is most certainly one of the things that I think we can all say we have in common... and particularly so here.
Tonight, I played several of my guitars and amps and I have to tell you, the experience of making your own music cannot be beat...at least for me. Listening to others play is great and HIGHLY fulfilling, BUT it's not the same as bringing out the music in yourself, at least IMHO.
Who here has aspired to play an instrument or plays an instrument? If you haven't tried to play music on an instrument of your choice...I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT. I strongly suspect that some of the greatest a'philes could/would make some of the greatest musicians. ( after all we typically know what to listen for and how to listen, IMO).
Weigh in guys...

I've played a variety of instruments since I was a kid, but the only one on which I am comfortable is a piano or keyboard instrument. It was a huge part of my life when I was in my late teens- much of my professional career has been devoted to the business and 'rights' side of music, which is how I came to terms with not being able to play professionally. I do get to play occasionally with some very talented people, not as often as I'd like, and they definitely inspire you to reach for a higher level of musicianship. But, a lot of my best playing, even when i was probably at my highest level of technical skill, was alone, improvising, trying to translate mood and feeling to music. You know when you are in that groove, and other times, it's just rote, and no fun. It's also very anti-intellectual in a way, you are using a different part of you than the brain that gets you through the world. Some of the best playing and writing is simple, and in a way, predictable- you want to hear a piece go in a direction, and when it does, there is an emotional satisfaction as a listener. The way tension resolves, or a melodic line, sometimes unexpected, but nonetheless just right, comes in at the right time. It's even more savory when you've heard it done many times badly or without inspiration, or predictably in the sense that it's a 'standard' fill and there's that little surprise or twist. In rock and blues, I'm far less interested in technical wizardry these days. (Good for me, since I basically suck as a guitarist, except for simple single note lead lines).
I have spent many, many years working on the business side of the industry, and it can be very disillusioning- not just the hurdles for talent to succeed commercially, but the almost complete disconnect between the business and the talent. That's why there are so few absolutely gifted producers and label guys who can make real magic in a session. And, the level of talent out there is so amazing, among so many unknowns, or working musicians who just do club gigs, session work or work as side men (and women) and are often truly gifted. Songwriting, to me, is a dark art, and is even more of a mystery than performing.
It's a blessing to be able to understand what it takes to do that- and to reach a place in your soul where you can translate something into a piece of music that reaches others.

 

[rockitman]

I play electric and acoustic guitar...mostly rock and blues...on and off since 1980. I have around 6 fine guitars in my collection. 2 David Thomas Mcnaught (Custom Luthier), 1957 Les Paul Black Beauty re-issue, an Alembic and a Jackson w/ the Floyd Rose wammy and sustainer and a Martin D42 acoustic.. I use a tube hybrid Modeling amp from the late 90's by Johnson, which is now defunct.

 

[Bruce B]

Piano, Flute, Clarinet and Sax. B.A. in Music Ed. , taught H.S. band for 2 years and toured with a couple of bands back on the East Coast. Mostly keyboards and sax.
I have a Yamaha C7 in my home now that I play every now and then.

 

[Keith_W]

Dave, I absolutely agree with you! If you are passionate about something, try to learn to do it yourself. I love to eat, so I learnt to cook. Result - I have a much better appreciation of what chefs do and whether the meal I am paying for represents good value or not. I can see the work that went into it. I love motorsport, so I learnt how to race. Result - I am still hopeless at the track, but I understand race craft and can appreciate what those F1 drivers are doing.

In my case, the music lessons were forced on me even before I developed a love of music. But unlike some other things which were forced on me as a child which I grew up to hate (e.g. church and broccoli), I really loved music. Those among us who play will know that musicians listen for different things than your typical audiophile. I want to hear what they are doing. I want to hear the instruments. I don't care so much about soundstaging or imaging, or the illusion that they are there in front of me. In fact, many of my non-audiophile musician friends don't even notice the imaging until it is pointed out to them. What they care about is the clarity of the system, and how it reveals the character of the instruments.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Singer/guitarist for 40 some years. I agree that musicians listen for different things, but would argue that they are, in many ways, the most important things. Clarity and instrument character are things that an audio system can reproduce. Soundstage will always be something that the speakers and the room create, at least partially independent of the recording. Is it good? Yes it can be spectacular! But I don't personally find it nearly as critical as clarity and tonality. Hmmm....maybe I just agreed with Keith.

Tim

 

[Bill Hart]

I like this thread (obviously) and something else struck me. While I agree that musicians listen 'differently,' I think Davey was trying to draw a correlation between what we do as hi-fi nuts (i hate the term 'audiophile') and those who have some familiarity with, if not real ability in playing, musical instruments. And here's my observation, with props to Mike Lavigne for making the point in a discussion thread about his new speakers: musicians and songwriters make music from an emotional place- it's is not the intellectual part of the brain. And a good system, if it is really effortless and 'right' requires, to use Mike's vernacular, 'less interpretation by the brain.' It's a visceral thing, not about technical proficiency or the ability to understand why Janos Starker played the cello a certain way.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I like this thread (obviously) and something else struck me. While I agree that musicians listen 'differently,' I think Davey was trying to draw a correlation between what we do as hi-fi nuts (i hate the term 'audiophile') and those who have some familiarity with, if not real ability in playing, musical instruments. And here's my observation, with props to Mike Lavigne for making the point in a discussion thread about his new speakers: musicians and songwriters make music from an emotional place- it's is not the intellectual part of the brain. And a good system, if it is really effortless and 'right' requires, to use Mike's vernacular, 'less interpretation by the brain.' It's a visceral thing, not about technical proficiency or the ability to understand why Janos Starker played the cello a certain way.

I listen emotionally, but I also listen very analytically as a musician. I wonder sometimes if it isn't even more analytical than some of the pickiest audiophiles. I listen for nuances of technique that sometimes require very good resolution of detail (or headphones) to pick up. I listen very critically for tone -- Is that a mahogany dreadnought or a rosewood OM? Is he getting that sound from simply playing up the neck or has he used a capo to shorten the scale? It doesn't get much subtler than some of this stuff. Half the time, I know I'm guessing. But live from your lap, capoed, for example, sounds different. The open strings are anchored at both ends in bone instead of a metal fret at the neck. Different tone.

That thing you hear sometimes about musicians not responding to high end the same because they are able to hear midfi and kind of fill in the blanks from memory? I think there's some truth in that, but it all goes out the window when you're listening in deep to a recording, trying to figure out how a player is getting a sound.

Tim

 

[Bill Hart]

I listen emotionally, but I also listen very analytically as a musician. I wonder sometimes if it isn't even more analytical than some of the pickiest audiophiles. I listen for nuances of technique that sometimes require very good resolution of detail (or headphones) to pick up. I listen very critically for tone -- Is that a mahogany dreadnought or a rosewood OM? Is he getting that sound from simply playing up the neck or has he used a capo to shorten the scale? It doesn't get much subtler than some of this stuff. Half the time, I know I'm guessing. But live from your lap, capoed, for example, sounds different. The open strings are anchored at both ends in bone instead of a metal fret at the neck. Different tone.

That thing you hear sometimes about musicians not responding to high end the same because they are able to hear midfi and kind of fill in the blanks from memory? I think there's some truth in that, but it all goes out the window when you're listening in deep to a recording, trying to figure out how a player is getting a sound.

Tim

Tim, it would be stupid for me to argue what you listen to or for as you play, but i was thinking of improvisation and where it comes from- sure, you know the licks, and you can finesse them to death, but when you are at your most creative, where does it come from? Is it technical, or something from inside that you are translating to music, almost unconsciously? Maybe this doesn't have anything to do with hi-fi, which is largely a passive sport, although we like to be engaged as listeners.....

 

[DonH50]

Church, few bands in the area, local philharmonic, and a local music production. Trumpet. My wife plays piano/organ/keyboard.

http://www.pikespeakphil.org/
http://www.trilakesmusic.org/
http://www.facebook.com/pages/NEW-CENTURY-BIG-BAND/188493063861

etc.

 

[MadFloyd]

Bassist/guitarist and programmer of other instruments.

I was in bands as a kid/young adult but haven't played with other human beings in years. I have a small studio with a DAW where I compose, record/mix for fun.

I have 17 guitars/basses crowding my small 15x10 room.

When I listen to my hi-fi, I tend to zero in on instruments and follow them, therefore a system that has some air around each instrument and has realistic body and tone is important to me. When I listen to other sources (e.g. car) I tend to listen to the music more as a whole instead of individual parts.

 

[flez007]

DaveyF - I recall touching this fact while at your place (thanks again pal!) - I played acoustic guitar for some years and I always engage with a good system that reproduce strings as close to live as possible. i have heard similar opinions from those who played or were around a piano at childhood for example..

I fully agree with you that playing an instrument is just another level of enjoyment and soul fullfilment, a higher one for sure than just placing the needle on a record. great thread you started!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, it would be stupid for me to argue what you listen to or for as you play, but i was thinking of improvisation and where it comes from- sure, you know the licks, and you can finesse them to death, but when you are at your most creative, where does it come from? Is it technical, or something from inside that you are translating to music, almost unconsciously? Maybe this doesn't have anything to do with hi-fi, which is largely a passive sport, although we like to be engaged as listeners.....

I'm not a jazzbo, and the music I play (American roots music - rock, blues, country, Americana) is more structured and less improvisational, but I'm not sure anyone working in these genres ever plays or sings anything exactly the same way twice. Well, there's the Eagles and other pop-rock acts that are very structured, but they're the exceptions, not the rule. Where to the spontaneous variations come from? From the energy of the performance, from great comfort and familiarity with the material (confidence), from the interplay between the musicians. I will play a song much more like the recording the first 20 or 30 times I play it. The more familiar I become with it, the more I'll feel like I can push its edges and re-interpret it a bit on the spot. The same thing goes for ensemble playing. The better you know the other players, the more you can push the edges, go unexpected places, and expect that the other players will be there when you arrive. I'm very fortunate. I've been playing with two of the five (including myself) guys in this line up for the better part of the last 15 years or so. I know them very well.

Tim

 

[Bruce B]

Being a mastering engineer, I'm finding it harder and harder to just sit down and listen (enjoy) music without being critical.

 

[MadFloyd]

I meant to mention that one of the things that separates playing and listening for me is my ability to play. For example, I love jazz but can't do it justice as a musician.

 

[NorthStar]

-- I play a variety of musical instruments since a very young age,
and I recorded myself few (more than few) times using different recording methods and microphone's placements. ...Even plugged my instrument directly into the recording machine.

I jammed with several musicians too over the years. ...Some of them real good 'operators', 'revelators'.

Now, I tell you this; listening to your own recordings is liberating and revealing. ...All in the best way possible.
But playing is even much more rewarding; and live (jammin') with other musicians.
...And not for money, but for pure unaltered pleasure, natural advancement.

And nobody, and I mean nobody can't take that away from you, ever!

I'm an artist, a creator, an experimentator, and true to my troubadour's heart & soul. :b
...And I don't have a 'definite' style; like I said, I am a true artist, and go with the flow of the instant present moment. I adapt to others and the nature surrounding my world. At least I try.

And by the way, I can 100% relate to the other posters in this thread.

 

[mep]

I have stated previously that I have a Strat, Tele, and a Seagull acoustic guitar and I can’t play any of them. Some people have a natural ability to play instruments and I have an unnatural ability not to be able to play worth a damn. I keep telling myself that when I retire I will get serious about it. My younger brother is a damn good guitar player but that gene must have skipped me.

 

[Bill Hart]

I have stated previously that I have a Strat, Tele, and a Seagull acoustic guitar and I can’t play any of them. Some people have a natural ability to play instruments and I have an unnatural ability not to be able to play worth a damn. I keep telling myself that when I retire I will get serious about it. My younger brother is a damn good guitar player but that gene must have skipped me.

There is a wonderful book called, i think 'The Perfect Wrong Note,' or something like that (I can look it up), which says the strict adherence to learning to play accurately by rote actually denies you the ability to tap into the music and really learn- it's a neat read, and the philosophy about learning from and 'going with' your mistakes has broader applicability. I can find the book for you if you want to read it.

 

[NorthStar]

-- You learn best from playing with other musicians; all sort of characters and styles.
Eventually you develop your own. ...And that, is the true essence of letting your soul speak out. :b
...Your own reach, plus the other people you reach too.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have stated previously that I have a Strat, Tele, and a Seagull acoustic guitar and I can’t play any of them. Some people have a natural ability to play instruments and I have an unnatural ability not to be able to play worth a damn. I keep telling myself that when I retire I will get serious about it. My younger brother is a damn good guitar player but that gene must have skipped me.

Guitar is hard, Mark. Piano, reeds, even horns are linear and logical compared to the scalar madness of stringed instruments. Most musicians who get very far with it hang the thing around their necks when they're 12 or 13 and don't take it of until they can feel and hear their way around. You won't find many good, intuitive musicians who are also good baseball players or hot rod builders (major exception: Jeff Beck). It just takes up too much of your youth to leave room for other hobbies. And it's not really about formal training, though that sure helps; I wish I had more of that foundation myself. We had a kid sit in on our rehearsal last weekend. A kid to me, early/mid 20s. She's a classically-trained violinist who, somewhere along the line, cut loose, started playing other styles, learned how to play by ear. Damn she was good.

Tim