Best line I've read in a long time. ...Rings abso!utely true, because it is true.
The more you spend on gear, the more you lose touch with the music!
- Thread starter Johnny Vinyl
- Start date
Best line I've read in a long time. ...Rings abso!utely true, because it is true.
Not sure I believe this anymore. I've struggled with inconsistent sound for a long time. The more I spent upgrading my equipment, the more frustrating the inconsistent sound quality bothered me because I knew how good the system could sound. I finally spent some time and money addressing my power situation. Suddenly, my problems with inconsistent sound quality are complete gone.
It has only been a month since I did the work on my power, so it's too early to say that the work completely solved my issues but it certainly seems so right now. Not only does my system sound far and away better than it has ever sounded, but it's delivering that quality every time I turn it on.
If the issue is really our ears and state of mind, surely I would have experienced some off days by now. We'll give another month or two to determine for sure, but I'd say that if you are having more than your fair share of off days, it might very well be power related.
I share your experience with power. You get much more sameness and stability of sound once that issue is resolved.
Yet apart from that it is still true that often it is our ears and state of mind. Also, changes in humidity and temperature affect how the room/speakers sound.
Because it's a travesty and a perversion of what this hobby should be about, the love of music. For a music lover like me this is abhorrent. And no, this criticism has nothing to do with 'immaturity' and 'pettiness' or with 'feeling superior', but with what's right and what's wrong when it comes to attitudes toward music. Music is too sublime of a human activity to be degraded to just a vehicle for obsession with its 'sound', or a vehicle for constant comparison of gear.
I am convinced that all audiophiles once started out with the love for music. Many have kept that focus, and probably their equipment has intensified their love of music, because that's what great reproduction of music tends to do. Yet some seem to have lost their way, and it's a pity.
Al, I cannot agree that there is a commandment about what "this hobby should be about." This is a complex hobby with many interesting aspects. Why do we have to elevate the value of one of those aspects above the others?
My musical interests are not very broad but I certainly love the music I love. I enjoy listening to the music I love, and I simply enjoy it more when a good high-end audio system facilitates an emotional connection to the music.
I am not embarrassed to declare that I also enjoy the equipment. I think that one of the many wonderful aspects of our hobby is being able to get to know and befriend the designers and manufacturers of the equipment through which we experience the music we love. I also enjoy looking at, appreciating the craftsmanship of and operating beautifully made, high-quality equipment in each of my hobbies (of which high-end audio happens to be the primary hobby). I enjoy the craftsmanship and quality of my audio components in exactly the same way I enjoy the craftsmanship and quality of my amateur radio transceiver, my custom .45 pistols and my sports cars.
I think this music versus equipment question is a bit of a false dichotomy. Why can't we like both? And why do we have to judge negatively people who have different ratios of equipment enjoyment versus music enjoyment than we do? The fact that I may look at my sports car more than I drive it does not suggest (to me) that I do not like driving it, or that I am in some way a “bad” sports car owner or that I am not worthy of the vehicle.
Finally, and perhaps this is idiosyncratic, I have found that -- and this applies to each of my equipment-based hobbies -- that the researching of equipment, the studying, the talking with people, the plotting, the planning, the figuring out of all the details to set it up – may be more than half the fun of the whole purchase process endeavor. The research and planning part may be more fun than actually making the purchase.
I am not an equipment swapper -- I may have among the lowest equipment turnover of anybody on WBF -- but I am not ashamed to admit I completely enjoy the research and planning process when I do buy major pieces of equipment in this hobby or in my other hobbies. But, in this hobby, that does not mean I do not also love the music to which I listen.
My musical interests are not very broad but I certainly love the music I love. I enjoy listening to the music I love, and I simply enjoy it more when a good high-end audio system facilitates an emotional connection to the music.
I am not embarrassed to declare that I also enjoy the equipment. I think that one of the many wonderful aspects of our hobby is being able to get to know and befriend the designers and manufacturers of the equipment through which we experience the music we love. I also enjoy looking at, appreciating the craftsmanship of and operating beautifully made, high-quality equipment in each of my hobbies (of which high-end audio happens to be the primary hobby). I enjoy the craftsmanship and quality of my audio components in exactly the same way I enjoy the craftsmanship and quality of my amateur radio transceiver, my custom .45 pistols and my sports cars.
I think this music versus equipment question is a bit of a false dichotomy. Why can't we like both? And why do we have to judge negatively people who have different ratios of equipment enjoyment versus music enjoyment than we do? The fact that I may look at my sports car more than I drive it does not suggest (to me) that I do not like driving it, or that I am in some way a “bad” sports car owner or that I am not worthy of the vehicle.
Finally, and perhaps this is idiosyncratic, I have found that -- and this applies to each of my equipment-based hobbies -- that the researching of equipment, the studying, the talking with people, the plotting, the planning, the figuring out of all the details to set it up – may be more than half the fun of the whole purchase process endeavor. The research and planning part may be more fun than actually making the purchase.
I am not an equipment swapper -- I may have among the lowest equipment turnover of anybody on WBF -- but I am not ashamed to admit I completely enjoy the research and planning process when I do buy major pieces of equipment in this hobby or in my other hobbies. But, in this hobby, that does not mean I do not also love the music to which I listen.
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Kind of agree with your logic, Ron.
My endgame in this, seemingly 'endless' pursuit of music/gear, is to come as close as possible to listening to music the way it was intended to - irrespective of whether it was recorded live or in a studio and therefore a relatively controlled environment.
For me, music is a physical experience as much as emotional. I like to listen to the likes of AC/DC and Metallica loud with unfettered dynamics and the physical impact you get when you listen to them live at a concert. I acknowledge it is well nigh impossible to replicate this actual feeling in a home environment but I want to come as close as possible to this feeling......gear helps to this end! In the last 10 years that I have been at it, I have suffered various levels of dissatisfaction with gear but I must say that I am fast reaching a point where I can be very content with what I am listening to through my gear now. I have mostly only added, tweaked or upgraded incrementally and stayed close to my basic line of equipment, which I immensely enjoy - my preamp/amp combination for instance has remained unchanged in the last 7 years or so....
I must also state that in my view, to an extent, gear also influences the musical genre that one covets. For instance, In my case, I was never fond of western classical music 10 years ago. All that has changed with my recent foray into analog and while I don't want to start yet another debate on vinyl versus digital, I do confess that well recorded and mastered classical pieces sound way better on vinyl and has in turn helped me enjoy this genre more than I ever did.......and of course discover new music in the process!
In summary, I think for me, listening to reproduced music the way it was intended to is the end and gear is the all important means! Hope this makes sense and resonates with the opinion/views of my friends out there!
Cheers
My endgame in this, seemingly 'endless' pursuit of music/gear, is to come as close as possible to listening to music the way it was intended to - irrespective of whether it was recorded live or in a studio and therefore a relatively controlled environment.
For me, music is a physical experience as much as emotional. I like to listen to the likes of AC/DC and Metallica loud with unfettered dynamics and the physical impact you get when you listen to them live at a concert. I acknowledge it is well nigh impossible to replicate this actual feeling in a home environment but I want to come as close as possible to this feeling......gear helps to this end! In the last 10 years that I have been at it, I have suffered various levels of dissatisfaction with gear but I must say that I am fast reaching a point where I can be very content with what I am listening to through my gear now. I have mostly only added, tweaked or upgraded incrementally and stayed close to my basic line of equipment, which I immensely enjoy - my preamp/amp combination for instance has remained unchanged in the last 7 years or so....
I must also state that in my view, to an extent, gear also influences the musical genre that one covets. For instance, In my case, I was never fond of western classical music 10 years ago. All that has changed with my recent foray into analog and while I don't want to start yet another debate on vinyl versus digital, I do confess that well recorded and mastered classical pieces sound way better on vinyl and has in turn helped me enjoy this genre more than I ever did.......and of course discover new music in the process!
In summary, I think for me, listening to reproduced music the way it was intended to is the end and gear is the all important means! Hope this makes sense and resonates with the opinion/views of my friends out there!
Cheers
Ron,
thank you for your perspective, which helps to clear some potential misunderstandings. I share your sentiments to a large degree. I also like the discovery process when improving the sound of my system, and i love my equipment as well and am passionate about it. And while just like you I have low turnover of my gear, I also understand when some people engage in higher turnover until they are satisfied with their sound and finally can relax into actually listening to music. And even when you enjoy the way the music is reproduced, there is nothing wrong with having an eye towards the next improvement.
My criticism was more directed towards people who engage in gear-swapping as a sport. Those who constantly ask themselves the question, how does this new fancy component sound, and who along the way amass/turn over tons of gear to compare all the time. It becomes equipment for equipment's sake, not for music's sake. And those who in their obsessive quest for better sound have forgotten to ever listen to even one track of music in its entirety.
Agree w/Ron, that this dichotomy is a blind alley.
I drive a classic car, a 1968 Citroen DS, and I get as much joy from the driving as I do the ownership pride. If I'd stuck w/a basic Ford over the years, I'd still love my driving, but I wouldn't think much about the car itself. Both scenarios are valid.
Yes, there is a pride of ownership factor in being an audiophile, that a general IPod music listener will never experience. But it's wrong to say that this is somehow diluting the love of music.
But to Bonzo75 esp, yes I am a happy gearhead, but now only think about how gear will maximise further enjoyment from my collection, not just buying gear for the sake of it (did I ever do this, don't think so).
Gearhead/musichead - flip sides of the same coin imho in the pursuit of more revelation from music.
I drive a classic car, a 1968 Citroen DS, and I get as much joy from the driving as I do the ownership pride. If I'd stuck w/a basic Ford over the years, I'd still love my driving, but I wouldn't think much about the car itself. Both scenarios are valid.
Yes, there is a pride of ownership factor in being an audiophile, that a general IPod music listener will never experience. But it's wrong to say that this is somehow diluting the love of music.
But to Bonzo75 esp, yes I am a happy gearhead, but now only think about how gear will maximise further enjoyment from my collection, not just buying gear for the sake of it (did I ever do this, don't think so).
Gearhead/musichead - flip sides of the same coin imho in the pursuit of more revelation from music.
Yes - it would be good if you can join me for a weekly (or if not, at least monthly) concert, and expand your taste to more classical (what's the point of being in music if your taste doesn't expand), rather than listening to music two hours a day on 10k grounding plus 10 plus k cables plus 10 k power - seriously, Barbican and Festival Hall sound great as well
Yes - it would be good if you can join me for a weekly (or if not, at least monthly) concert, and expand your taste to more classical (what's the point of being in music if your taste doesn't expand), rather than listening to music two hours a day on 10k grounding plus 10 plus k cables plus 10 k power - seriously, Barbican and Festival Hall sound great as well
I'm sure they sound WAAYYYY greater. Not to disparage Spirit's system, that holds for live music vs. any system -- mine, yours, any.
Having said that, a recording played back on a system can provide you with an intimate perspective of the music that you don't get from any seat in the concert hall. It really depends on where you sit.
The key to the music i love is "emozione", emotion. Does a second generation IPOD do that as well as a level 5 AN(UK) system? Both can if you listen to the music and not the system and you're in the right mood, whether your rollerbladeing through Rock Creek or sitting in front of an expensive array of equipment in a professionally designed listening room.
Bonzo, I've been to 14 concerts already this year, on average once a fortnt. Three were Marillion gigs at the Wolverhampton Civic Hall. One was Magma at the Cadogan Hall. And I've been to the Barbican, Royal Festival Hall, Cadogan Hall again, and St. Martins In the Fields three times, to see Scheherazade twice, Pictures At An Exhibition, Vivaldi Five Seasons, Brandenberg Concertos, and Carmina Burana. I've been to Ronnie Scotts three times to see Billy Cobham, Dave Weckl and Birelli Lagrene. So please, don't be too sniffy re my attendance of concerts, I'm getting reasonable exposure to amazing classical, jazz, fusion and rock live, no problem. I have King Crimson and Steven Wilson twice to come.
Btw I listen to music 3 hrs a day, not 2, and my grounding is ONLY £5k, cables ONLY £8k, and power ONLY £5k - I know how much you like to be accurate about your facts. Do you want to talk about the £80k I've spent so far on my system? Would be relevant with your labelling of me as a gearhead (let's not talk about the other £80k I've spent on my home cinema!).
If you didn't travel on your endless round of auditions, you might have more time to listen to music at home, and have a healthier balance as I do. As far as any of us w/this crazy OCD hobby can hope to!
Btw I listen to music 3 hrs a day, not 2, and my grounding is ONLY £5k, cables ONLY £8k, and power ONLY £5k - I know how much you like to be accurate about your facts. Do you want to talk about the £80k I've spent so far on my system? Would be relevant with your labelling of me as a gearhead (let's not talk about the other £80k I've spent on my home cinema!).
If you didn't travel on your endless round of auditions, you might have more time to listen to music at home, and have a healthier balance as I do. As far as any of us w/this crazy OCD hobby can hope to!
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Bonzo, I've been to 14 concerts already this year, on average once a fortnt. Three were Marillion gigs at the Wolverhampton Civic Hall. One was Magma at the Cadogan Hall. And I've been to the Barbican, Royal Festival Hall, Cadogan Hall again, and St. Martins In the Fields three times, to see Scheherazade twice, Pictures At An Exhibition, Vivaldi Five Seasons, Brandenberg Concertos, and Carmina Burana. I've been to Ronnie Scotts three times to see Billy Cobham, Dave Weckl and Birelli Lagrene. So please, don't be too sniffy re my attendance of concerts, I'm getting reasonable exposure to amazing classical, jazz, fusion and rock live, no problem. I have King Crimson and Steven Wilson twice to come.
Btw I listen to music 3 hrs a day, not 2, and my grounding is ONLY £5k, cables ONLY £8k, and power ONLY £5k - I know how much you like to be accurate about your facts. Do you want to talk about the £80k I've spent so far on my system? Would be relevant with your labelling of me as a gearhead (let's not talk about the other £80k I've spent on my home cinema!).
If you didn't travel on your endless round of auditions, you might have more time to listen to music at home, and have a healthier balance as I do. As far as any of us w/this crazy OCD hobby can hope to!
Yeah I am very accurate. The 5k of your Westwick, for instance, does not include losses made on the Burm or Airlink. Does your cable cost include your reserva upgrades? If I mention your amps cost, it would be the cost not on of the NAT alone, but of the audions and the hovland that you are still hoarding, which is why you are, like all here, a gearhead. Actually, if it was a figure spent only on one component, e.g. Wilson Alexandria, that wouldn't make one a gear head. But stocking a wilson sophia, logan summit, focal utopia, etc in the space of one to two years, even at an amount lower than the Alexandria, would.
Bonzo, I'm really not going to get into an ever decreasing vortex of tit for tat arguing w/you online.
Tbh, there are too many spats and defensive retorts on this forum that end w/people being snappy all the time.
I've had enough w/Purite, not going to get going again.
I'll leave my future comments to reply to people who actually have something positive to contribute.
And I really don't need you to broadcast to the world what I haven't revealed myself.
To put the record straight, the only gear I have multiple items unsold are my prev two lines of amps, all else has been sold. I have sold all other unused gear.
I have lost some money on upgrading, but have also recouped much on sales and discounts/ex demo generous pricing/bartering etc, that i'm only a few £ooo's out of pocket compared to formal rrp's.
Keep playing both ends against the middle on this argument.
Tbh, there are too many spats and defensive retorts on this forum that end w/people being snappy all the time.
I've had enough w/Purite, not going to get going again.
I'll leave my future comments to reply to people who actually have something positive to contribute.
And I really don't need you to broadcast to the world what I haven't revealed myself.
To put the record straight, the only gear I have multiple items unsold are my prev two lines of amps, all else has been sold. I have sold all other unused gear.
I have lost some money on upgrading, but have also recouped much on sales and discounts/ex demo generous pricing/bartering etc, that i'm only a few £ooo's out of pocket compared to formal rrp's.
Keep playing both ends against the middle on this argument.
Well, I didn't start this dialogue. You mentioned Bonzo in your comments, to which I replied, and like always, you get emotional when disagreed with. My point still stands, your ratio of expenses on peripheral stuff compared to core stuff is highly tilted to gear rather than music
I hate these threads. They never shed any light and just give a certain class of listener the chance to proclaim how their way of listening and enjoying is somehow "better". I'm sorry to tell you that if you're reading and posting here, you're already an audiophile, somewhere on the obsession continuum. You can pretend that some particular place on that continuum is the best place to be, and if that makes you happy then great, but compared to the rest of the population you're already nuts about gear. I'm not that interested in where others stand on this, I only care about my enjoyment, but I'm happy for you if you're happy.
Speaking of my own enjoyment, I've been listening on a newly-cobbled-together third system at home in the last couple of days, and it's been brilliant. A broken ankle makes constant changing of CDs difficult so I'm streaming Spotify from an iPad to an Intel NUC, Wadia 151 Powerdac and B&W 685 S2 speakers. It's far from state of the art, probably shouldn't even be mentioned on a forum such as this (!!) but I've really enjoyed listening to it over the last few days. So I'd certainly agree that the more I spend the more I expect from the sonics, and that expectation can get in the way of enjoyment if it's not being met. With cheaper gear that baggage doesn't apply, I'm not questioning why the hell I spent all that money, and it can be easier to enjoy the primary purpose of all this.
Speaking of my own enjoyment, I've been listening on a newly-cobbled-together third system at home in the last couple of days, and it's been brilliant. A broken ankle makes constant changing of CDs difficult so I'm streaming Spotify from an iPad to an Intel NUC, Wadia 151 Powerdac and B&W 685 S2 speakers. It's far from state of the art, probably shouldn't even be mentioned on a forum such as this (!!) but I've really enjoyed listening to it over the last few days. So I'd certainly agree that the more I spend the more I expect from the sonics, and that expectation can get in the way of enjoyment if it's not being met. With cheaper gear that baggage doesn't apply, I'm not questioning why the hell I spent all that money, and it can be easier to enjoy the primary purpose of all this.
Happy to admit to being guilty as charged. Apologies I didn't before. Can we move on please? Or am I going to be singled out on this forum for upgrading gear, and having gear unsold, and spending big on tweaks? Am I really the only one? Now, if I'm really the only audiophile you know that has spent so much on gear, or the balance of tweaks is disproportionate, I guess you feel I really have a fetish for spending cash illogically, and the music is secondary. And being more in love w/superfluous boxes and cables. You may be right.
Let's see if others agree w/you, is £20k spent on tweaks as part of an £80k total budget irrational, adding another £20k for lost moneys on bad purchases/minimal resale value.
Even this £20k I'm happy to forego, because a contact in the trade got me a £55k planetarium grade commercial crt projeector for £1k which would have cost me £55k new (spent £8k tweaking it).
Just be consistent for once - have a go at Mike Lavigne, Christian Rockitman, JFrech, Audiocrack, Barry et al for their various massive spends, on $30k balanced power, $150k+ Rives rooms, $70k Troy Emperors, £25k Stillpoints etc etc. How about Dave DDK w/all those arms and carts. Really, please, send some posts to them or come on this forum, and castigate their choices as you do mine.
I don't have anything to add to your circular argument, will reply to others.
Let's see if others agree w/you, is £20k spent on tweaks as part of an £80k total budget irrational, adding another £20k for lost moneys on bad purchases/minimal resale value.
Even this £20k I'm happy to forego, because a contact in the trade got me a £55k planetarium grade commercial crt projeector for £1k which would have cost me £55k new (spent £8k tweaking it).
Just be consistent for once - have a go at Mike Lavigne, Christian Rockitman, JFrech, Audiocrack, Barry et al for their various massive spends, on $30k balanced power, $150k+ Rives rooms, $70k Troy Emperors, £25k Stillpoints etc etc. How about Dave DDK w/all those arms and carts. Really, please, send some posts to them or come on this forum, and castigate their choices as you do mine.
I don't have anything to add to your circular argument, will reply to others.
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