THE HIFI FIVE ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION STREAMING LIVE ON YOUTUBE PREMIERING IN OCTOBER!

[morricab]

One is a hobbiest the other a dealer
It’s not that hard
One can be ethical or not in either position however if you are a dealer you have a financial interest period

If you guys discussed sex no one would ever get laid!

Is an influencer a hobbyist? Seems they have gone beyond that line...

 

[Docdan60]

Thank you for your comment, Dan. Let's pursue this.

What if every one of the component candidates the person is genuinely interested in for his/her own sonic preferential reasons is available at the same discount? Where in that situation do you see the influence?

The impact is on what you can afford versus those of us who are not afforded such discounts that opens up many more possibilities for you all

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have two anecdotal stories suggesting that all component candidates the person is genuinely interested in were NOT available at the same discount. Nor do these two stories suggest the choices made were for sonic preferential reasons. It is also not clear to me that either person actually heard all of the candidates before trying to buy them.

The first guy wanted a new pair of speakers and he told me that he contacted a handful of manufacturers to negotiate the best price of their flagship speaker. He then bought the speaker for which he received the biggest discount. The second guy told me he basically did the same thing with turntable manufacturers. I got the distinct impression from talking to both guys years ago that their decision was not based on sound quality but rather on the discount they received.

If what these two guys told me is true, they were clearly influenced by the prices when making their purchases.

These anecdotes are in opposite to what I am discussing.

Let me copy and paste it for you:

I see a world of difference between a reviewer using his/her own money to purchase components at a discount versus long-term loans which cost the reviewer nothing.

Since reviewers are afforded approximately the same discount on every component the purchasing playing field is even. So what a reviewer actually buys for himself/herself -- even at a discount -- is extremely probative. What a reviewer buys with his/her own money tells me far more than any of that person's words in a written review.

I am talking only about reviewers, not regular consumers. So your example is not relevant to my topic.

You admit that you are formally compensated for promoting products.

This is baldly false. It is false because I have never suggested -- let alone admitted -- any such thing. As you sometimes do you are fabricating the question to suit your answer.

You also claim that you have no conflicts and can act as a dealer/reviewer/interviewer/podcaster/forum owner and remain neutral as a podcast moderator and interviewer, and as a posting hobbyist and member of this audio forum.

Another falsehood and mischaracterization. I have never said that I have "no conflict." Please cite for us where I wrote that.

I have conceded, as I must, that I have an apparent conflict of interest regarding being a dealer for Clarisys Audio loudspeakers. This is why I disclose this fact in my signature.

I have written numerous times that "not even Sherlock Holmes himself could find in my Masters & Makers interviews or show interviews any pro-Clarisys Audio bias." (Unsurprisingly this annoys Florián and Mike Bovaird.) No one has been able to find the slightest hint of pro-Clarisys bias or anti-Alsyvox sentiment. (Of course my love of planar dipole loudspeakers in general informs my interview questions to manufacturers of box speakers.)

On the evidence I believe there is no actual conflict of interest. In fact when discussing Clarisys Audio loudspeakers I tell people that anyone considering Clarisys should also consider Alsyvox, just like anyone considering Ferrari should also consider Lamborghini.

Any intellectually honest dealer should say the same thing about highly-regarded competing products. if you ask a dealer "what products do you not carry that you also think sound great?" and the dealer says "nothing else sounds as good as what I carry," that is a dishonest dealer and you should not patronize him/her.

 

[Ron Resnick]

How can you be an "influencer" receiving accommodation pricing and also remain neutral in those other capacities?

Since reviewers are afforded approximately the same discount on every component the purchasing playing field is even. So what a reviewer actually buys for himself/herself -- even at a discount -- is extremely probative.
If you are shopping for a new sailboat and every sailboat store gives you the same discount then your decision process is entirely unadulterated by the discount. You are still going to buy whichever sailboat you want for its discounted price.

However, now that you admit to compensation as an "influencer"

This is another falsehood. I have said no such thing. Please cite for us where I wrote or said that I am receiving "compensation." Accommodation discount is not "compensation as an influencer" for the reason I keep repeating for you.

When I purchase any component at an accommodation discount there is no obligation, understanding or arrangement for me to promote the component I am purchasing. If, in fact, I end up enjoying the component in my personal system, then of course I am going to talk about it favorably merely as a enthusiastic hobbyist -- just like any regular WBF member.

As a hobbyist you have raved about your American Sound turntable many, many, many more times than I have discussed as a hobbyist the Brinkmann Balance which I was fortunate to be able to purchase at an accommodation discount.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the MastersounD PF100s.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the Aries Cerat Incito S.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the Brinkmann Balance.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the Reed 5T.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the Air Tight Opus 1.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the Aesthetix Io.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the LampizatOr Baltic 4. (I have done interviews with Lukasz, but that is because I like Lukasz and Fred, and because LampizatOr is a What's Best Forum sponsor. I would've done those interviews even if I didn't own a LampizatOr DAC.)

 

[Ron Resnick]

The impact is on what you can afford versus those of us who are not afforded such discounts that opens up many more possibilities for you all

Please let's stay focused narrowly on the topic. I understand what you are saying.

But what does that have to do with my having a level playing field to purchase with my own money whichever component I subjectively as a hobbyist feel will allow me to achieve the greatest emotional engagement?

The fact that the discount opens up for me a wider selection of components than you might be able to consider does not adulterate my decision process, or make uneven or influenced my decision process, does it?

 

[PeterA]

This is baldly false. It is false because I have never suggested -- let alone admitted -- any such thing. As you sometimes do you are fabricating the question to suit your answer.

Ron, How is this "baldly false? I wrote that you refer to yourself as an "influencer" and admitted to receiving accommodation prices. Is that not exactly what you write here in this post on page 9 and what you have included now in your WBF signature? You call yourself an industry influencer and say you have purchased components at accommodation discounts.

As a result of a viewer question on the show last night about my personal influencer status and accommodation discount purchases I responded that I don't disclose anything explicitly because I assume that people know that influencers receive accommodation discounts. But that does not satisfy my own ethical principle about transparency and disclosure.

So I have now written into my WBF signature the following disclosure:

Purchasing Disclosure: As an industry influencer I am privileged to have purchased my components at accommodation discounts, typically 40% off of MSRP. I have the Innuos Pulsar on long-term loan, courtesy of Innuos. The VTLs I purchased used. I paid full MSRP for the Gryphon Pendragon loudspeaker system.

 

[PeterA]

Another falsehood and mischaracterization. I have never said that I have "no conflict." Please cite for us where I wrote that.

I have conceded, as I must, that I have an apparent conflict of interest regarding being a dealer for Clarisys Audio loudspeakers. This is why I disclose this fact in my signature.

I have written numerous times that "not even Sherlock Holmes himself could find in my Masters & Makers interviews or show interviews any pro-Clarisys Audio bias." (Unsurprisingly this annoys Florián and Mike Bovaird.) No one has been able to find the slightest hint of pro-Clarisys bias or anti-Alsyvox sentiment. (Of course my love of planar dipole loudspeakers in general informs my interview questions to manufacturers of box speakers.)

On the evidence I believe there is no actual conflict of interest. In fact when discussing Clarisys Audio loudspeakers I tell people that anyone considering Clarisys should also consider Alsyvox, just like anyone considering Ferrari should also consider Lamborghini.

Any intellectually honest dealer should say the same thing about highly-regarded competing products. if you ask a dealer "what products do you not carry that you also think sound great?" and the dealer says "nothing else sounds as good as what I carry," that is a dishonest dealer and you should not patronize him/her.

Conflicts of interest are more about the perception of the person influenced than they are about the intent of the influencer. It is the mere appearance of conflict that I pass judgement on to assess the value of your comments. You can claim that you have no actual conflicts and demand proof. None of that matters to me as the reader who perceives a conflict and judges accordingly.

 

[PeterA]

Since reviewers are afforded approximately the same discount on every component the purchasing playing field is even. So what a reviewer actually buys for himself/herself -- even at a discount -- is extremely probative.
If you are shopping for a new sailboat and every sailboat store gives you the same discount then your decision process is entirely unadulterated by the discount. You are still going to buy whichever sailboat you want for its discounted price.

First, as in your previous example of accommodation discounts to audio reviewers, I do not agree with the premise. I am not aware of some universal or "same discount" offered by sailboat manufacturers to prospective buyers. Second, even if there were such a thing, it would certainly matter in my decision process. If I had a budget of say $80K, and there was the "same discount of say 20%, I would rather buy the $100K sailboat than the $20K sailboat, now that both were available to me.

This is another falsehood. I have said no such thing. Please cite for us where I wrote or said that I am receiving "compensation." Accommodation discount is not "compensation as an influencer" for the reason I keep repeating for you.

When I purchase any component at an accommodation discount there is no obligation, understanding or arrangement for me to promote the component I am purchasing. If, in fact, I end up enjoying the component in my personal system, then of course I am going to talk about it favorably merely as a enthusiastic hobbyist -- just like any regular WBF member.

If you are talking about your Clarisys speakers, you are not talking about them as a hobbyist and just like any regular WBF member.

As a hobbyist you have raved about your American Sound turntable many, many, many more times than I have discussed as a hobbyist the Brinkmann Balance which I was fortunate to be able to purchase at an accommodation discount.

Here is the thing Ron: I paid full asking price for all of my gear from DDK. I am a hobbyist, and I did not receive any discount, nor did I ever ask for one. I simply paid the price in full. Anything I discuss on my system thread or elsewhere is as an enthusiastic hobbyist, as identified in my signature. Now that you have disclosed receiving an "accommodation discount" on your Brinkman turntable, and not just a discount as some hobbyists might receive from a dealership, I no longer assume you are discussing that turntable as a hobbyist. There is no need to prove any obligation or understanding or arrangement to promote that component. No agreement is necessary. The reader's perception is all that matters here when he assesses you positive comments. Your admission that you were fortunate to buy it at an accommodation discount factors into my perception, especially when I had not already assumed such an accommodation discount. That is why I commend you for the disclosure.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the MastersounD PF100s.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the Aries Cerat Incito S.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the Brinkmann Balance.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the Reed 5T.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the Air Tight Opus 1.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the Aesthetix Io.

Please cite for us the examples of compensated influencer promotion I have done for the LampizatOr Baltic 4. (I have done interviews with Lukasz, but that is because I like Lukasz and Fred, and because LampizatOr is a What's Best Forum sponsor. I would've done those interviews even if I didn't own a LampizatOr DAC.)

Ron, I never claimed that you promote products as an influencer, so I am not going to cite for you examples. You are the one who claimed that you are an influencer, not I. And you now disclose it in your signature with a purchasing disclosure. You have still not answered my question about what criteria you meet to claim that you are an influencer? Is it simply that you are a member of the industry by virtue of being a dealer?

 

[Elliot G.]

Ok now I am going to be celibate and start day drinking

 

[Ricky64]

Ok now I am going to be celibate and start day drinking

At last, some truth and sincerity.....

 

[tima]

This is hokum! Almost every influencer is getting paid for every post on every product everywhere! Some get tens of thousands for just holding an item in a picture.
How do you know there aren’t any on this forum that are being paid? You don’t and neither does anyone else for sure. Just because we don’t have actual proof does not mean it doesn’t it can’t happen

You've always been a careless reader Elliot.

To my understanding there is no audio industry membership known as "influencer". Which is not to say there are no influencers -- someone proselytizing a particular brand for remuneration in return, but without public awareness of this being done. The idea behind being an influencer is that the one who is influencing is not known to be influencing for pay, He talks up a product's virtues while appearing as a 'normal' audiophile, a regular user of the product. There are such influencers on this forum.