The End Of A 35 Year Journey ---Zellaton -The Reference Ultra Final Frontier

[gds7368]

I would bet 100 % that subs would integrate much better with the superior bass from the Zellatons. Yet since subs are not necessary with those speakers, as you say, the issue becomes moot.

I’d have to agree with you that subs just aren’t necessary here. The bass from the Zellatons in Steve’s room was nothing short of phenomenal - deep, powerful, and perfectly balanced with the rest of the spectrum. Even if someone offered me free subs and the top expert to set them up in Steve's room, I’d politely decline. What I heard already had that rare combination of weight, speed, and musicality that makes you forget about “more” and just enjoy the music.

 

[Steve Williams]

You had trouble integrating the subs because the bass of the Wilsons in that room wasn't that great. I loved your sound last year, but the bass was a weak point. You said yourself that the bass of the Zellaton (including everything else) is so much better. You need great upper bass and mid-bass to allow for good sub integration.

I also had a bit of trouble integrating my subs prior to my last acoustic changes, which was adding extra TubeTraps (and removing a carpet in exchange). The additional TubeTraps improved the upper and mid-bass from the main speakers (they hardly have an effect on the low bass and thus the subwoofers) and with that better main speaker bass the low bass of the subs integrated better.



I would bet 100 % that subs would integrate much better with the superior bass from the Zellatons. Yet since subs are not necessary with those speakers, as you say, the issue becomes moot.

Two points

1.Integration of subs is not plugnplay

2 as stated subs with the Zellaton are totally unnecessary. I’ll be seeing you in November and let you decide. I honestly don’t know a single Zellaton user who has subs in his system

 

[Al M.]

Two points

1.Integration of subs is not plugnplay

2 as stated subs with the Zellaton are totally unnecessary. I’ll be seeing you in November and let you decide. I honestly don’t know a single Zellaton user who has subs in his system

Steve,

I agree with 1. It takes effort.

As for point 2, I thought I had conceded it in my post.

 

[Steve Williams]

Steve,

I agree with 1. It takes effort.

As for point 2, I thought I had conceded it in my post.

I was just summarizing Al as it seems to be a talking point by those whoo havent heard. Im looking forward to seeing you and Ian in November as both of you have keen ears and I know are brutally honest

 

[Kbh57]

I always try to keep in mind that pleasing sound is very subjective, but I’ve had no reason to even consider adding subs to my Plural Evos. The execution risk, not to mention the expense, would be incurred with the prospect of little, if any, sonic benefit, given the performance without subs.

 

[microstrip]

You had trouble integrating the subs because the bass of the Wilsons in that room wasn't that great. I loved your sound last year, but the bass was a weak point. You said yourself that the bass of the Zellaton (including everything else) is so much better. You need great upper bass and mid-bass to allow for good sub integration. (...)

I think that this bass and sub issue needs a proper perspective. Steve brought his X2 from a previous large room, where he had them with subs and powerful amplifiiers.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...home-theater-of-steve-williams.443/#post-3412

The new room is an extremely treated smaller room, that now seems has shown to be inadequate to the X2 . I followed his room very interesting thread in WBF and IMO in fact , it is just the opposite Wilson suggests for his speakers.

IMO all the comments we read and share in this thread must be understood in terms of this new room with its particular acoustics - fortunately it seems it is excellent for his Zellaton's.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Some very valid points here, great read!
Just to add 50cts worth because I feel it's far more worth than 2cts...

Yes! A properly designed full range speaker system should not require subs, agreed! However, how many speaker systems are actually "properly designed" and with that in mind, to fit and respond perfectly in various types of rooms... nearly impossible. The majority of speaker systems are designed in anechoic chambers/ highly controlled testing rooms, which have very little to zero of those variant parameters that we find in every type of other room/ listening space. Therefore, I believe it totally depends on your room.

Back in 2018, when I first took delivery of the CLX's, we lived in a small apartment. That little shoebox was more than adequate to reproduce the bass required from most of the music I listen to. Then in 2019, after moving into our newly built house, with much larger space and a hallway down the middle... that LF heft was lost. The LF detail was there but I couldn't find the low level notes, especially from recordings that used organ or piano bass notes (recordings by George Benson with McDuff & Grant Green). Anything below this 22 or 28Hz forget it! The human ear simply cannot pick up anything below that. So when we add subs, this will no doubt greatly enhance those low notes but it is not natural. These are artificial enhancements that sometimes aren't even on the recording to begin with!

After adding just one BF (balanced force) Martin Logan sub, that allowed for those low notes to be heard very clearly, also with fantastic speed and snap, zero over-hang or bloom. Funny thing is, most of the time, the sub is in stand-by mode... only triggers on when the LF signal actually kicks in. So to me, that's pretty much close to a natural sound all the way. Some have told me to add 4 subs, or 6! I guess that extra two on the roof may help. Yes, the trees and birdies would love to twerk to some bass notes!

Anyway, due to that hallway and larger space, adding the sub helped but I definitely would not over-do it. One is more than mighty fine, plus I rather prefer to hear natural bass compared to artificial bass. That's just a personal preference. It's similar to AI- I prefer Actual Intelligence! Bloody artificial nonsense.

The Zello Ultra-Ref that I auditioned with those beautiful Dartzeel's and the CJ Art tube amps, did not use any subs at all. However, when the chappy switched over to the ML hybrid stats, he used just one BF sub (BF212) and that was in a fairly large room. Same chap who has the ML Statement Evo-II's, and the Genesis. Damn beautiful speakers! WOOF!

Cheers maties, subs or not, just enjoy those finest tunes!
RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

From what I gather, Stevo has been rewarded with a fine set-up of the Zello's, thanks to Gideon Sw from Audio Art's, obviously knows what he's doing and has in-depth experience in the best possible set-ups. Even though the room has been treated and is acoustically sound or fine tuned, the Zello Reference Ultra's seem to work wonders as is, so in which case why on earth mess with it?! As Stevo had proudly reiterated more than once... he's just enjoying those finest tunes!

So thats a big WOOF!
Cheers matey, and keep those tubes glowing.
RJ

 

[Steve Williams]

Ken Swanson came by for a listen a few days ago. He has heard the Zellaton Plural Evos in my system in June and wanted to compare what he remembered to the new Reference Ultra. He posted in my personal system blog but I thought it would be of interest to the Zellaton readers in my thread here.

Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams

Steve Have you considered posting and sharing your playlist to the “High Fi Audio Partners” section of Qobuz? I love going there to find new music and to see what others are listening to. TBH many of my streaming playlists are taken from Qobus Hi-Fi Audio partners play lists amongst so many...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Kbh57]

With Gideon's guidance, my system makeover continues. After moving to the Plural EVOs and Burmester amplification, my analog rig is well behind the rest of my system. So, Gideon is providing a Reed 3C turntable, Reed 2B arm, and My Sonic Eminent cartridge. This is the table that Gideon used at SWAF last spring with the Plural Evos. Obviously, I was quite taken with the sound. I'm very excited to add this beautiful equipment to my rig. Thus far the "Audioarts" upgrades-Plural Evos, Burmester 218 amp and Burmester 808 Mk.5 preamp, have exceeded expectations-stunningly good to my ears. I'm confident this upcoming move will be transformational for my vinyl. Can't wait for it to happen.

Amazing what can happen when you wander into a room out of curiosity.

 

[Audioarts]

I’m really looking forward to setting this up, Kerry. Combined with your new Schnerzinger wire loom, the Plurals will become even more transparent with incredible flow, speed and intimacy, similar to the qualities Myles Astor, along with other ZELLATON owners experience from their analog front end.

 

[Kbh57]

I'm very excited for the next round and to get the vinyl rig up to snuff. I was listening last night and wondering how it could get better-the Plural Evos (and Burmester) continue to impress. I'm sure Schnerzinger will only add to the experience. Of course, I'm only six numbers away from ultras, so put those lads in Germany on standby.

 

[Steve Williams]

I'm very excited for the next round and to get the vinyl rig up to snuff. I was listening last night and wondering how it could get better-the Plural Evos (and Burmester) continue to impress. I'm sure Schnerzinger will only add to the experience. Of course, I'm only six numbers away from ultras, so put those lads in Germany on standby.

Order early Kerry as I waited 6 months and Im hearing the wait now might even be longer. The full loom I'm betting will put your system over the top

 

[earlinarizona]

Can you talk about the changes on this new STATEMENT ULTRA model from the KLASSIK Series.

 

[earlinarizona]

I heard a pair of Zellatons in Munich and to me they had an electrostatic quality and a real standout. Now with Dr. Steve raving, who can imagine what these new ones sound like. With Gideon helping with the setup, that greatly helps getting the best sound. It is great that a company like this pushes for better more natural sound while not using off the shelf drivers like many other speaker companies.

 

[Steve Williams]

I heard a pair of Zellatons in Munich and to me they had an electrostatic quality and a real standout. Now with Dr. Steve raving, who can imagine what these new ones sound like. With Gideon helping with the setup, that greatly helps getting the best sound. It is great that a company like this pushes for better more natural sound while not using off the shelf drivers like many other speaker companies.

I am pretty certain Gideon just received a pair of Stage Ultra which hopefully he will post his thoughts about its sound

 

[Audioarts]

Earl, thanks for asking as the new "Ultra" line is a substantively different speaker from the Klassik line, differing in fundamental ways yet still adhering to traditional Zellaton principles.

Firstly, new the drivers now manifest the firm's latest thinking in the sandwich membrane which they invented in the 1930s. In other words, they don't reinvent the wheel too often..., but only when the technology creates the impetus, such as now. The "Ultra" cone membrane consists of a proprietary fiber maximizing the original sandwich foam concept but is now much lighter, faster and even more transparent than before. The cone has an array of dimples that can be seen in the attached pictures, allowing for an extremely fast excursion and smooth frequency response. Notice of how even the tweeter uses the same material construction, achieving a seamlessness that even carefully matched high quality drivers can't match. The latest cast alloy used for the basket is vastly more inert and solid, while spider material, magnet type, voice coil and tesla are all changed, perhaps accounting for the higher efficiency in the "Ultra" models, explaining why Steve can now really enjoy the magic in his SET without the usual anemic limitations in the power range.

In addition, we worked very closely with Duelund in Denmark to create crossover components matching the new driver parameters and characteristics. Oil filled capacitors and other Jensen vintage elements incorporated. Further refinements of the cabinet structure, bracing and damping of the vertical rear baffle as well.

 

[Audioarts]

Earl, thanks for asking as the new "Ultra" line is a substantively different speaker from the Klassik line, differing in fundamental ways yet still adhering to traditional Zellaton principles.

Firstly, new the drivers now manifest the firm's latest thinking in the sandwich membrane which they invented in the 1930s. In other words, they don't reinvent the wheel too often..., but only when the technology creates the impetus, such as now. The "Ultra" cone membrane consists of a proprietary fiber maximizing the original sandwich foam concept but is now much lighter, faster and even more transparent than before. The cone has an array of dimples that can be seen in the attached pictures, allowing for an extremely fast excursion and smooth frequency response. Notice of how even the tweeter uses the same material construction, achieving a seamlessness that even carefully matched high quality drivers can't match. The latest cast alloy used for the basket is vastly more inert and solid, while spider material, magnet type, voice coil and tesla are all changed, perhaps accounting for the higher efficiency in the "Ultra" models, explaining why Steve can now really enjoy the magic in his SET without the usual anemic limitations in the power range.

In addition, we worked very closely with Duelund in Denmark to create crossover components matching the new driver parameters and characteristics. Oil filled capacitors and other Jensen vintage elements incorporated. Further refinements of the cabinet structure, bracing and damping of the vertical rear baffle as well.
View attachment 157611View attachment 157610

Earl, thanks for asking as the new "Ultra" line is a substantively different speaker from the Klassik line, differing in fundamental ways yet still adhering to traditional Zellaton principles.

Firstly, new the drivers now manifest the firm's latest thinking in the sandwich membrane which they invented in the 1930s. In other words, they don't reinvent the wheel too often..., but only when the technology creates the impetus, such as now. The "Ultra" cone membrane consists of a proprietary fiber maximizing the original sandwich foam concept but is now much lighter, faster and even more transparent than before. The cone has an array of dimples that can be seen in the attached pictures, allowing for an extremely fast excursion and smooth frequency response. Notice of how even the tweeter uses the same material construction, achieving a seamlessness that even carefully matched high quality drivers can't match. The latest cast alloy used for the basket is vastly more inert and solid, while spider material, magnet type, voice coil and tesla are all changed, perhaps accounting for the higher efficiency in the "Ultra" models, explaining why Steve can now really enjoy the magic in his SET without the usual anemic limitations in the power range.

In addition, we worked very closely with Duelund in Denmark to create crossover components matching the new driver parameters and characteristics. Oil filled capacitors and other Jensen vintage elements incorporated. Further refinements of the cabinet structure, bracing and damping of the vertical rear baffle as well.
View attachment 157611View attachment 157610

I am pretty certain Gideon just received a pair of Stage Ultra which hopefully he will post his thoughts about its sound

Yes, I just received my Stage's pictured here with the protective plastic still on. I realize the Stage's are in the middle of the range but in some critical ways my favorite (I know I'm an awful salesman), simply because of the greater simplicity and driver configuration, offering a purity that is drug like. Of course the Reference and Statement offer much greater scaling and presence, but even in my large room, the Stage just has a magic making me want for nothing. I have clients scheduled the next weeks to come listen, so I'm hoping to share what I'm trying to describe.

 

[Steve Williams]

I love that white with silver rings

 

[earlinarizona]

Thank you for explaining all the changes.