TechDAS Air Force Zero (real final photo)

[Tango]

Between near identical tables where one runs in that range and the other is consistently 33.333 you may. The difference likely is heard in terms of basic audio attributes such as tonality, dynamics, dimensionality, etc., not pitch variation.

Have you run your old Monaco vs your new Monaco with such tiny speed difference next to each other? If you have, the difference you heard would likely be because they were different tts not because of the tiny speed difference imo.You did write a good report of the new Monaco that the new one sounds quite an improvement.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Lagonda]

To me not really. Inaudible. My speed varies everyday if you watch the three decimals readout. The last three decimal is so tiny your day to day electricity small fluctuation will probably effect it. You can do a blind test 33.333 vs 33.331 vs 33.335 and fool yourself that you hear any difference. I think many tts have only two decimals readout for a reason.

Kind regards,
Tang

I have the same software as you my Phoenix speed controller, if i keep
the tachometer connected to the psu, variations are +/- 0,002 with constant
feedback and adjustment over the record side. I prefer the sound without
adjustments, no feedback. I have it set starting at 33,330 rpm ending at 33,336 rpm at the end of the record, with the needle in the groove on my 3012R arm.
With my tangential arm and same MicroRidge cut/tracking force the friction
is slightly higher but with lees variation from beginning to end.
Go figure ! I can hear a degradation in sound when the system is constantly adjusting speed. But no difference when i let it “ drift” from one end of the record
til the other

 

[spiritofmusic]

Does anyone know of how to pick up one of these Phoenix Falcons?

 

[Lagonda]

Does anyone know of how to pick up one of these Phoenix Falcons?

I think there is one for sale on Audiogon right now, they are multi voltage psu ‘s.
If you just want the tachometer part, i will go half with you and take the psu
part. I have the low output version in my system, and might one day use a more
powerful motor.
We talked about it before, but last time the one for sale was a low output version, i already had.

 

[spiritofmusic]

L, PM me, I'm not overly familiar w it. All I want is the speed measurer/display.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

At an audiophile event a couple years ago a bunch were sitting down listening to and talking about a male vocal track when the host walked up and said that you might want to try this at the right speed, this is actually a female vocal track and switched to 45 rpm and walked away internally giggling his ass off(the expression on his face was priceless).
So debate all you want about .001 of speed differentiation, the answer is not hardly.

 

[NorthStar]

I have no doubt that we can't discern tiny differences in speed; say from 33.333 to 33.330 or 33.336
Or unless a superhero with an acute auditory system (set of superman/woman ears).

Belt drive, automatic quartz drive, laser tracking, linear tracking, ...the rotations of the LP (33 1/3), or 45, or 78 rpm, ...some motors will be more accurate than others.
How important is this; I go with Francisco's earlier answer.
#319 https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ro-real-final-photo.27677/page-16#post-567009

So many variables can vary the speed; not just the motor.
_____

Only for fun (beyond):
Motor drives in tape decks are another game. Motor drives in CD players?
HDD (hard disc drive) or SSD (solid state drive)?

Music has been rotating since a very long time, it is still spinning.
Today we are in the music servers era, the ultra hires music from our smartphones.
The music is still rotating in circles @ low (reels), and ultra fast speed (15,000 rpm drives).
Cylinders were playing music in rotations too, speed controlled.

The disc is probably the most ever music format used in history; from 24" (1957 hard drives) to the LP (12") to the CD (5") ... reel tapes, mini disc, micro disc, no disc (no mechanical parts - SSD).

Our LP is an enduring disc format, very very very hard to kill.
To the contrary; hundred years from now, after most of us are gone to the four winds of the globe, I predict the LP will still be strong and alive.
Why? It's very simple; because of the music treasures.

Get ready, set your speed, go.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Sustained notes will tell you all you need to know about speed consistency. On my current TT this is painful.
So I get the debate in consistency, but at those increments, not so much.
If David came out with a .0000000 display it would be yet another object for us to obsess about, thanks buddy!

 

[Woofer and Tweet]

Wow.... Very Large !

See cartoon number: 144-121517

 

[Lagonda]

Sustained notes will tell you all you need to know about speed consistency. On my current TT this is painful.
So I get the debate in consistency, but at those increments, not so much.
If David came out with a .0000000 display it would be yet another object for us to obsess about, thanks buddy!

I hear the “hunting” of a speed correction system not as a unstableness in speed
but as a slight hazing in the high frequencies.

 

[hvbias]

I like the 3012R in the rear slot !

The fastest spreading trend in hifi

 

[Tango]

The fastest spreading trend in hifi

Funny. Now that it is shown on this ultimate tt. I have been contacted if I wanted to sell one of mine.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[tima]

Have you run your old Monaco vs your new Monaco with such tiny speed difference next to each other? If you have, the difference you heard would likely be because they were different tts not because of the tiny speed difference imo.You did write a good report of the new Monaco that the new one sounds quite an improvement.

Kind regards,
Tang

There is no readout on the GPA turntables, but the accuracy of each is known to a reasonable +/- amount (parts-per-million). The sonic difference between highly accurate and extraordinarily accurate was sufficiently great.

I don't think it makes sense to account for the difference simply by saying they were two different tables, but rather one needs consider what about them was different. And the primary differences were greater stable accuracy and lower noise. Yes, physically they had different drive control software and motors, but it is the manifestations of those differences in sound that count.

This is the thing I think people have a hard time grasping: the sonic differences between accurate and very accurate are not some special sonic you hear when listening to a less accurate table. Like many other component, you don't know you're hearing smeared timing as less well focused intsruments or less dynamics until you hear something better. The impact of stable accuracy is improvement in almost every sonic attribute that depends on time - which is most of them: tonality, dynamics, all the psychoacoustic stuff like back wall reflections, soundstage, dimensionality, etc.

 

[tima]

Do you have any reliable experimental data on these values or are these just suppositions? I must say it goes against everything I have read on this subject. Is this a particular property of analog or does it also apply to digital?

Surely what matters is platter speed - the values measured at the motor are of little value for this question.

In the end I think using such values are not very helpful because no table can sustain them over, say, the course of a side. Since most? agree that in terms of optimal, stable speed is equally important with accurate speed it is interesting to look at frequency of correction rather than comparing two numbers that may occur at different points in time on different tables. Correction requires some sort of feedback mechanism into a controller, which makes relevant the questions feedback from what and frequency of feedback, then how quickly is that data acted upon and by what means. Of course - as you say - values measured at the platter are what matters. There are way so many people invested in belt drive that talking about topics there is stirring up a hornets nest and I won't do that.

But to answer your question, yes, I have what I believe is reliable experiential data. I don't have a clue about issues associated to stable accuracy wrt digital - I don't know what that means.

 

[shakti]

Do we have now a "recommended retail price" for the Airforce 0 (at least for the US) ?

Would assume, that prior to the US launch event a final pricing will be communicated?

 

[NorthStar]

In Euros it was mentioned 390,000 for the Zero @ 700+ pounds (weight). Per pound is ....

In US dollars; anywhere between $300,000 and $450,000

 

[microstrip]

In the end I think using such values are not very helpful because no table can sustain them over, say, the course of a side. Since most? agree that in terms of optimal, stable speed is equally important with accurate speed it is interesting to look at frequency of correction rather than comparing two numbers that may occur at different points in time on different tables. Correction requires some sort of feedback mechanism into a controller, which makes relevant the questions feedback from what and frequency of feedback, then how quickly is that data acted upon and by what means. Of course - as you say - values measured at the platter are what matters. There are way so many people invested in belt drive that talking about topics there is stirring up a hornets nest and I won't do that.

But to answer your question, yes, I have what I believe is reliable experiential data. I don't have a clue about issues associated to stable accuracy wrt digital - I don't know what that means.

Thanks. Can you share this reliable experimental data with us? IMHO debating these issues in qualitative terms is meaningless. Turntables are first of all a technical subject and can be debated in technical terms with associated numbers.

What I wanted to focus is simply accuracy, nothing else. Trying to mix it with very short term variations will not help to debate it.

My question concerning digital was simple - do you think that your comment

On a single table with same arm and cartridge and speed varying in the range 33.331 to 33.335, you probably wouldn't hear the impact of that variation. Between near identical tables where one runs in that range and the other is consistently 33.333 you may. The difference likely is heard in terms of basic audio attributes such as tonality, dynamics, dimensionality, etc., not pitch variation.

also applies to a digital playback system. It is extremely simple to emulate such differences of speed in digital.

 

[hvbias]

At an audiophile event a couple years ago a bunch were sitting down listening to and talking about a male vocal track when the host walked up and said that you might want to try this at the right speed, this is actually a female vocal track and switched to 45 rpm and walked away internally giggling his ass off(the expression on his face was priceless).
So debate all you want about .001 of speed differentiation, the answer is not hardly.

I was listening to a Yes record at 33 rpm (the correct speed) and thought I might have left the motor at 45 rpm.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh, it's all those odd time signatures in prog rock. You seem to speed up, slow down. A killer to try to dance to LOL.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Oh, it's all those odd time signatures in prog rock. You seem to speed up, slow down. A killer to try to dance to LOL.

I am guessing he is referring to Mr. Anderson's vocal range...