Tannoy owners

[bonzo75]

I used to own a pair of westminsters royal se. Could do scale and snare drum like few other speakers i've
heard, but ultimately they sounded embarrassingly muffled and closed-in in comparison to my both my
mg 10" and 15". Didn't go particularly deep either. Managed to find a new home for them.

I think the main trouble is the quality of the drivers (and possibly the crossovers) -- not the cabinets.
I've heard the same muffled sound from the other tannoy prestige models.

What did you drive them with?

 

[jespera]

radford sta 25, decware zma, copland csa 28

 

[montesquieu]

I used to own a pair of westminsters royal se. Could do scale and snare drum like few other speakers i've
heard, but ultimately they sounded embarrassingly muffled and closed-in in comparison to both my
mg 10" and 15". Didn't go particularly deep either. Managed to find a new home for them.

I think the main trouble is the quality of the drivers (and possibly the crossovers) -- not the cabinets.
I've heard the same muffled sound from the other tannoy prestige models.

Paul Coupe, the chap who designed my speakers based around the HPD drivers, has done some great work improving crossovers of the Prestige Range (and I think himself owned a pair of Kensingtons once which he did a bunch of work on). Well worth doing according to a conversation I had with him.

I suspect in some way the old equation - where Tannoy focused on the drivers and electronics (MG and HPD crossovers with their adjustable autoformers were quite sophisticated for their era) - has been turned on its head: today's Tannoy focuses on the furniture aspects while paring back on the 'hidden' aspects like the crossovers.

radford sta 25, decware zma, copland csa 28

I happen to love the little Radford and some ways still miss mine (I run an STA100 on my HPDs, using KT90s), but suspect the STA 25 wouldn't adequately power the Westminster's electronics.

 

[jespera]

No doubt you can get more out of the westminsters by replacing the crossovers — or even better: replace the drivers.

The radford was the best of the amps i tried. It usially is. It didnt sound like any of the amps struggled to drive the westminsters.

What would be the point of a 100db/w speaker that would require 100+w amplification to sound decent?

 

[montesquieu]

No doubt you can get more out of the westminsters by replacing the crossovers — or even better: replace the drivers.

The radford was the best of the amps i tried. It usially is. It didnt sound like any of the amps struggled to drive the westminsters.

What would be the point of a 100db/w speaker that would require 100+w amplification to sound decent?

I think thats the point I was making above. 100db/w is only a measure of how loud it goes for a particular level of input. Whether a speaker requiring a really complex crossover sounds any good driven by a low-power amp is a different question.

Not that the STA25 is low-power, it's 35-40w, indeed in my view it's one of the best EL34 PP amps you can buy (there are people out there trying to run Westminsters with 6w of 300b SE, solely on the sensitivity performance with no other consideration) but it might explain why you didn't quite get what you expected.

 

[aLLeARS]

I think thats the point I was making above. 100db/w is only a measure of how loud it goes for a particular level of input. Whether a speaker requiring a really complex crossover sounds any good driven by a low-power amp is a different question.

Not that the STA25 is low-power, it's 35-40w, indeed in my view it's one of the best EL34 PP amps you can buy (there are people out there trying to run Westminsters with 6w of 300b SE, solely on the sensitivity performance with no other consideration) but it might explain why you didn't quite get what you expected.

One of the biggest problems with the Westminster Royals is all the internal push connectors used for the wiring and crossovers. They make the sound dull and inconsistent and only get worse with time.

After removing them and soldering the connections, sixteen push connects can be removed from the signal path. Also bypassing the front panel treble settings with an internal jumper on the H.F. crossover board saves going thru those wonky connectors, improving treble clarity.

Doing this makes a HUGE difference in treble clarity openness and consistency. It’s a must do if you own them.

Also, the three point mounting system with one foot under the center of the front baffle leaves the front baffle flapping in the breeze. They need a four-point mounting system so the front baffle is “grounded”.

Another problem is cabinet ringing. The cabinet needs to be damped to keep all the panels from resonating to the low frequencies. There are some large empty (unused) spaces inside the cabinet that create the folded horn shape. These need to be filled with sand in order to dampen the cabinet resonances. And yes it turns a 300lb speaker into a 600lb speaker.

Bi-amping with an active crossover and connecting the amps directly to the drivers makes the biggest improvement of all. They take on an electrostatic type of openness and clarity.

Westminster Royals can be great speakers but you have to work at it. My late friend Harvey “Gizmo” Rosenberg used to compare it to working on hot rod cars. He had a point.

 

[montesquieu]

Great insight. Thanks for this.

 

[jespera]

One of the biggest problems with the Westminster Royals is all the internal push connectors used for the wiring and crossovers. They make the sound dull and inconsistent and only get worse with time.

After removing them and soldering the connections, sixteen push connects can be removed from the signal path. Also bypassing the front panel treble settings with an internal jumper on the H.F. crossover board saves going thru those wonky connectors, improving treble clarity.

Doing this makes a HUGE difference in treble clarity openness and consistency. It’s a must do if you own them.

Also, the three point mounting system with one foot under the center of the front baffle leaves the front baffle flapping in the breeze. They need a four-point mounting system so the front baffle is “grounded”.

Another problem is cabinet ringing. The cabinet needs to be damped to keep all the panels from resonating to the low frequencies. There are some large empty (unused) spaces inside the cabinet that create the folded horn shape. These need to be filled with sand in order to dampen the cabinet resonances. And yes it turns a 300lb speaker into a 600lb speaker.

Bi-amping with an active crossover and connecting the amps directly to the drivers makes the biggest improvement of all. They take on an electrostatic type of openness and clarity.

Westminster Royals can be great speakers but you have to work at it. My late friend Harvey “Gizmo” Rosenberg used to compare it to working on hot rod cars. He had a point.

At the current pricing of 50k usd for a pair, it sounds like quite an expensive diy project …

I still think you can do even better by replacing the drivers.

 

[jeff1225]

One of the biggest problems with the Westminster Royals is all the internal push connectors used for the wiring and crossovers. They make the sound dull and inconsistent and only get worse with time.

After removing them and soldering the connections, sixteen push connects can be removed from the signal path. Also bypassing the front panel treble settings with an internal jumper on the H.F. crossover board saves going thru those wonky connectors, improving treble clarity.

Doing this makes a HUGE difference in treble clarity openness and consistency. It’s a must do if you own them.

Also, the three point mounting system with one foot under the center of the front baffle leaves the front baffle flapping in the breeze. They need a four-point mounting system so the front baffle is “grounded”.

Another problem is cabinet ringing. The cabinet needs to be damped to keep all the panels from resonating to the low frequencies. There are some large empty (unused) spaces inside the cabinet that create the folded horn shape. These need to be filled with sand in order to dampen the cabinet resonances. And yes it turns a 300lb speaker into a 600lb speaker.

Bi-amping with an active crossover and connecting the amps directly to the drivers makes the biggest improvement of all. They take on an electrostatic type of openness and clarity.

Westminster Royals can be great speakers but you have to work at it. My late friend Harvey “Gizmo” Rosenberg used to compare it to working on hot rod cars. He had a point.

What a great photo, thank you for sharing. I was very sad when the Gizmo website came down, it was one of my favorites.

 

[jespera]

I think thats the point I was making above. 100db/w is only a measure of how loud it goes for a particular level of input. Whether a speaker requiring a really complex crossover sounds any good driven by a low-power amp is a different question.

Not that the STA25 is low-power, it's 35-40w, indeed in my view it's one of the best EL34 PP amps you can buy (there are people out there trying to run Westminsters with 6w of 300b SE, solely on the sensitivity performance with no other consideration) but it might explain why you didn't quite get what you expected.

With all due respect i think thats superstition. Theres no particular reason to believe that a 100w amp should be better at driving difficult loads than a 25w amp. What matters is the amp’s ability to act as a voltage source, ie its output impedance. And the watts dont say anything about that.

6w on the westminsters is cutting it a bit thin but the main reason an set amp will struggle would be its high output impedance. Typical leading to a bloated bass and lack of kaboom.

 

[montesquieu]

Maybe. Higher power amps do generally have lower output impedance though simply because of the way they are typically designed, so the effect is the same.

Personally I think there's probably a good reason why Tannoy tend to demo these amps with 200w+ solid state (which would be total overkill if these were vintage drivers of course, completely unnecessary) - and yes it could be damping factor/output impedance (those cones take a lot of controlling) or it could be to make sure the complex crossover works optimally.

Put it this way I doubt very much if you'll ever hear these at a show powered by 35w of PP EL34.

 

[jespera]

Shame i dont have it on video but one of my party tricks was to expose guests to straight a/b comparison between westmlnster and my mg 10” placed on top of the westminsters. With radford on westie and copland on mg 10”. It was murder. The westminster sounded like the mg 10” with 3 blankets over them. Also with the amps swapped. I bet you wont hear that at the hifi shows either.

 

[montesquieu]

Gosh. Definitely some issues there.

It’s always surprised me when I had any vintage tannoys around how similar they all sound (in a basic sense) … 10in, 12in,15in, red, gold or hpd the family resemblance is unmistakable with the differences being mainly of scale or extension.

I haven’t experimented at all with the later speakers though I’ve heard quite a few of them. That experience sounds really dreadful.

 

[jespera]

Audiotory memory is fragile. A/b testing is sobering.

I have since heard other members of the recent/current prestige line — and to my ears they all sound muffled. 200w or not.

I do think this line may represent the pinnacle of the focus-on-furniture-and-bling approach (cabinets made in china btw) and some of the 80-00s models may be way better. Lrm/lgm, for example, have a strong reputation in pro circles.

 

[leyenda]

One of the biggest problems with the Westminster Royals is all the internal push connectors used for the wiring and crossovers. They make the sound dull and inconsistent and only get worse with time.

After removing them and soldering the connections, sixteen push connects can be removed from the signal path. Also bypassing the front panel treble settings with an internal jumper on the H.F. crossover board saves going thru those wonky connectors, improving treble clarity.

Doing this makes a HUGE difference in treble clarity openness and consistency. It’s a must do if you own them.

Also, the three point mounting system with one foot under the center of the front baffle leaves the front baffle flapping in the breeze. They need a four-point mounting system so the front baffle is “grounded”.

Another problem is cabinet ringing. The cabinet needs to be damped to keep all the panels from resonating to the low frequencies. There are some large empty (unused) spaces inside the cabinet that create the folded horn shape. These need to be filled with sand in order to dampen the cabinet resonances. And yes it turns a 300lb speaker into a 600lb speaker.

Bi-amping with an active crossover and connecting the amps directly to the drivers makes the biggest improvement of all. They take on an electrostatic type of openness and clarity.

Westminster Royals can be great speakers but you have to work at it. My late friend Harvey “Gizmo” Rosenberg used to compare it to working on hot rod cars. He had a point.

Nice picture. Is that the baffle for 18 inch Sunlight 308 in the corners?

 

[aLLeARS]

Nice picture. Is that the baffle for 18 inch Sunlight 308 in the corners?

WOW! you got it!
I still have the drivers.
That picture is from the live room at Ambient Recording Co. in Stamford, CT. where we had the system set up for several months.
What a fun time! Harvey was a fascinating character and a real inspiration.

 

[bonzo75]

 

[Zappadaddy]

Shame i dont have it on video but one of my party tricks was to expose guests to straight a/b comparison between westmlnster and my mg 10” placed on top of the westminsters. With radford on westie and copland on mg 10”. It was murder. The westminster sounded like the mg 10” with 3 blankets over them. Also with the amps swapped. I bet you wont hear that at the hifi shows either.

mine do not certainly sound like that but you have to give them the best gear you can or keep away from them recorded with Samsung SE9e

 

[jespera]

my do not certainly sound like that but you have to give them the best gear you can or keep away from them recorded with Samsung SE9e

Apparently. What is the musc?

 

[Zappadaddy]

Apparently. What is the musc?

But Beautiful by Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis from album Jaw´s blues 1981