Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[pleroma]

Streaming but the difference is roughly the same for local or streaming.

Thanks Emile. A competitor has expressed disappointment you've not disclosed more detail on the switch, though it now seems there is a synergy between router, switch, and NIC. Can you say anything about what you've done in the design to achieve this competitive advantage? Something you learned from another recent product?

 

[Steve Williams]

Exactly .
The more you experiment the more possibilities for improvement you find.
Not all would work , but some for sure.

for last 4 years my listening room is a giant collection of many different devices , cables, isolators and other twicks and I permanently re-test all options.
I know it is disease , but I am sure Emile will find a cure for that

Hi Kris

there are too few hours in my day to remotely consider what you do. I’m havting too much fun enjoying the music. Rhapsody was right on in terms of limitations of networks and systems. Mine is one of them as to where signal enters my house and how the signal reaches my sound room and it ain’t by wire. Im sure there is better but I’m betting I’m damn close to where you guys are I’ve been down too many rabbit holes in my many years in this hobby and no desire to enter them ever again. I appreciate all of the comments and agree with most of them. I’m betting that many users here are also using Wi-Fi but bottom line is that most of my listening comes not from streaming but from my 16 TB’s of internal library. Your hypothesis is based only on streaming and I think I read somewhere today that Emile said the difference between streaming and internal files sonically is not a lot. So although I appreciate you’ll never know until you try… , I can tell you I have indeed tried based on the limitations of my system and what I hear in my room between my internal files and streaming is indeed close. I love reading people’s experiments and where it lead but as far as doing experiments myself, I did and I’m done. When all this started 4-5 years ago I got on this wagon because the journey along the Taiko path was to create a new platform which had a SQ that was second to none. Emile had a very bold but brilliant plan. His goal was to control the signal from the time it gets to the Extreme until it exits the Extreme. IMO he has kept his promise along the way with every new piece to the puzzle Taiko adds . I’ve had lengthy talks with him about my network. I’ve followed his recommendations to the Tee and am very happy where I am now Also with each new update Christiaan posts a complete glossary in the update with recommendations and Emile always provides his thoughts as to ”what’s best” it seems that so much of what I’ve been reading lately in this thread is how users try to make it better and I read that Emile has either tried it or would not recommend it. For me at least, that’s always the best advice.

 

[Taiko Audio]

A competitor has expressed disappointment you've not disclosed more detail on the switch

Sorry to hear that

 

[austinpop]

A competitor has expressed disappointment you've not disclosed more detail on the switch

That's hilarious! How inconvenient for them.

 

[Almostlast]

It does add up: when the strength of the RF signal is low enough, there is no (perceptible) noise from the RF signal.

If I understand your dilemma correctly, I think you can add a second Eero to your modem. Then you will have two separate Eero networks. Name your new network and then add an Eero AP (near your Taiko switch) for this network.
Once you get to this point you can do your port forwarding to lower latency, etc.

 

[Rhapsody]

Port forwarding- I understand the result and in my set up I know that I would like to operate via the port forwarding but I have no idea how to set up port forwarding.

Is the port forwarding set up on the home network router that is used now for the Extreme and control devices or on the TAiko router?

 

[pleroma]

That's hilarious! How inconvenient for them.

I'm not taking sides here, but he's actually a nice guy, and wasn't being silly, but seemed to be seriously considering buying one for his own use. Having disclosed his own designs, I think he wanted to see some justification for the price given the number of other switches available. On the other hand, since Taiko appears to have invested a few years in this project, nobody could blame them for keeping things confidential.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Port forwarding- I understand the result and in my set up I know that I would like to operate via the port forwarding but I have no idea how to set up port forwarding.

Is the port forwarding set up on the home network router that is used now for the Extreme and control devices or on the TAiko router?

It’s preconfigured in the taiko router.

 

[Rhapsody]

It’s preconfigured in the taiko router.

Time to go to bed Emile it’s almost time for you to get up

 

[cat6man]

It’s preconfigured in the taiko router.

i'd still like to better understand how to set up port forwarding, to better isolate parts of my system.
not just audio, but also home network, IoT things, etc

 

[jelt2359]

They’re basically free additions, and perhaps you’d like to use one.

Using those two unfiltered outputs are basically akin to using a splitter, correct?

 

[Zeotrope]

Sorry to hear that

You must be flattered, Emile!

 

[Di-fi]

Similar in noise perception.
But sonically I prefer wire only as the latency is smaller for the signal , not passing via few switches.
For every day use I keep wifi as it is convinient for my family members and guests.

@Kris, I enjoy reading your observations. The last thing you want to do is change your iPad/control device but did you give it some consideration lately?

(...) Another interesting discovery is remote control device to server connection speed/latency has an effect, faster is better here, a faster Ipad, or a less cluttered Ipad with less apps which create background activity installed, sounds better. And this goes for both local file and streaming playback.(...)

www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-cr%C3%A8me-de-la-cr%C3%A8me.27433/post-874778

 

[austinpop]

i'd still like to better understand how to set up port forwarding, to better isolate parts of my system.
not just audio, but also home network, IoT things, etc

At the risk of going off-topic, what specifically did you want to know?

At a very high level, home routers implement a firewall that blocks all incoming connection requests. This provides security, so the best scenario for security is to not use port forwarding (or port triggering, a related feature) at all. The reason port forwarding is useful is when you want to run a server/service inside your home network to which you want to allow devices from outside to connect. By doing this, you're trading off security for function, so you want to do this judiciously, and very carefully. For example, if you want to run a server on a single machine that has local IP address 192.168.1.235, that listens on port 800 (random example), you would configure your router to route incoming traffic (from the external internet) addressed to port 800 to the local machine at 192.168.1.235. For security, you would be well advised to place this machine in the router's DMZ. And make sure this machine has good antivirus, malware, and ransomware protection.

The Taiko router's situation is more specialized. Since the "internet" or WAN for the Taiko router is your current home network, which is already secured by your home router, security is less of a concern. One of the key functions of the Taiko router is to block broadcast and multicast traffic on your home network from propagating to the Taiko audio network. But the Taiko router still needs to allow devices on the home network to access the Extreme for:
- accessing the Roon core
- accessing the XDMS server
- transferring files
- and perhaps other things.

So for these services, the Taiko router will need to preconfigure port forwarding rules, that allow these services to be accessed. This is still better than having all broadcast and multicast traffic from your home network through.

Does this help?

 

[austinpop]

I'm not taking sides here, but he's actually a nice guy, and wasn't being silly, but seemed to be seriously considering buying one for his own use. Having disclosed his own designs, I think he wanted to see some justification for the price given the number of other switches available. On the other hand, since Taiko appears to have invested a few years in this project, nobody could blame them for keeping things confidential.

Apologies -- I did not mean any disrespect. I honestly thought you wrote that sentence to be humorous.

I actually think that Emile has disclosed quite a lot of the design rationale for the whole router/switch/NIC/DAC cable architecture. This is captured in Christiaan's document here: https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/w.../05/Taiko-Network-Card-Switch-Summary_v26.pdf

I'll be honest: when the price was first announced, I was daunted by it. I suspect I am one of the (probably in the minority) Extreme users who is cost sensitive. I was not ready to order on day 1, and thought I'd wait to see what the response was. Naturally, the overwhelming positive response was very compelling. Still, it was not until I heard the switch/NIC combo in @nenon 's system in Chicago (during AXPONA) that I was convinced to order it. Those who know @nenon know that, like me, he's dabbled in the odd switch or two. The uplift we heard with the Taiko switch/NIC was well above anything he or I have heard with any of our past switch experiments.

As for disclosing designs: part of the benefit comes from the tight integration between the Extreme OS optimizations and the hardware. To quote the above doc: The Switch / network card combo reduces noise by offloading (moving) processing from the Extreme music server to the Switch.

This is very difficult for a 3rd party switch vendor to replicate. And surely Emile is not obliged to disclose any of this secret sauce.

 

[Kris]

I

Hi Kris

there are too few hours in my day to remotely consider what you do. I’m havting too much fun enjoying the music. Rhapsody was right on in terms of limitations of networks and systems. Mine is one of them as to where signal enters my house and how the signal reaches my sound room and it ain’t by wire. Im sure there is better but I’m betting I’m damn close to where you guys are I’ve been down too many rabbit holes in my many years in this hobby and no desire to enter them ever again. I appreciate all of the comments and agree with most of them. I’m betting that many users here are also using Wi-Fi but bottom line is that most of my listening comes not from streaming but from my 16 TB’s of internal library. Your hypothesis is based only on streaming and I think I read somewhere today that Emile said the difference between streaming and internal files sonically is not a lot. So although I appreciate you’ll never know until you try… , I can tell you I have indeed tried based on the limitations of my system and what I hear in my room between my internal files and streaming is indeed close. I love reading people’s experiments and where it lead but as far as doing experiments myself, I did and I’m done. When all this started 4-5 years ago I got on this wagon because the journey along the Taiko path was to create a new platform which had a SQ that was second to none. Emile had a very bold but brilliant plan. His goal was to control the signal from the time it gets to the Extreme until it exits the Extreme. IMO he has kept his promise along the way with every new piece to the puzzle Taiko adds . I’ve had lengthy talks with him about my network. I’ve followed his recommendations to the Tee and am very happy where I am now Also with each new update Christiaan posts a complete glossary in the update with recommendations and Emile always provides his thoughts as to ”what’s best” it seems that so much of what I’ve been reading lately in this thread is how users try to make it better and I read that Emile has either tried it or would not recommend it. For me at least, that’s always the best advice.

I here you Steve
I am just a person who cant stop untill done.
Will keep testing because I have tons of fan with that.
Realism with latest XDMS is sometimes better than real here and this is scary.
I wonder I will need to stop testing soon after XDMS beta, BPS and Router with DC splitter will come. Than I will focuse just on music like you and buy a chair that Marty proposed.

 

[Kris]

@Kris, I enjoy reading your observations. The last thing you want to do is change your iPad/control device but did you give it some consideration lately?

(...) Another interesting discovery is remote control device to server connection speed/latency has an effect, faster is better here, a faster Ipad, or a less cluttered Ipad with less apps which create background activity installed, sounds better. And this goes for both local file and streaming playback.(...)

www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-cr%C3%A8me-de-la-cr%C3%A8me.27433/post-874778

This is 100 % correct.
have 3 pads and 2 android phones. Tested each as a remote.
The faster ( newer) the ipad / phone is the better sound.
This comes with better hardwere.
The less apps and more of the funcionality is off the better
If you are able to DOSCONNECT wifi remote after hitting play you get a better SQ
Android seems to be a little better than ios in ipads.

While tested it all myself I wait for Emile to give us recommendation for utimate remote
OR to get a softwere that will limit ethernet activity in the remote.
Not sure what will be the top performing remote here but I am sure Taiko Team Will help us to find it.

 

[pleroma]

I'm not taking sides here, but he's actually a nice guy, and wasn't being silly, but seemed to be seriously considering buying one for his own use. Having disclosed his own designs, I think he wanted to see some justification for the price given the number of other switches available. On the other hand, since Taiko appears to have invested a few years in this project, nobody could blame them for keeping things confidential.

For those not aware of details on the new networking products, Emile was so thoughtful as to PM me a link to a PDF with a wealth of detail on his product.

Taiko-Network-Card-Switch-Summary_v26.pdf (taikoaudio.com)

You're a classy guy Emile, and thank you.

Darryl

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Using those two unfiltered outputs are basically akin to using a splitter, correct?

Correct, indeed.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Since WAV >> FLAC (though the gap is closing with the latest xdms backend update), wouldn't BPS+local WAV+switch+router+distributor be the absolute baseline target against which all else is compared?

Also, could you discuss "roughly the same"? I assume you mean the filter preference order was similar. Is the delta between filters larger or smaller with local WAV files?

There's an ever-decreasing difference between local files and streaming but the influence of the Switch, Router, and filters is the same whether we stream or play local music.