Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[cat6man]

i know that this grows geometrically, but what about 1 filter for router and a different one for switch? i'm sure folks here will extensively test that out!

also, do you have any observations on using 3 outputs and does adding a 3rd (e.g. for my sotm usb/aesebu reclocker) impact the sound?

 

[marty]

Even more Filters​

After this, several more filter incarnations followed but by now, the trend had become abundantly clear. When the tonality, richness, and naturality were increased, the openness and resolution were decreased, and vice versa. The most natural filter was absolutely fantastic for vocals, piano, and acoustic instruments while the most accurate filter was an absolute party with anything electronic. Meanwhile, I also observed that acoustic bass benefited from both filters but in different manners. This coincides with what aspects we personally feel most personify actual live instruments. For one person, this might be tonality and timbral complexity while for another it might be speed and snappy transient behavior.

Whilst listening to all these differences, and considering how Emile and I seemed to have slightly different preferences, the idea formed to include more than a single filter in the final incarnation of the Extreme DC Power Distributor.

As this idea was ping-ponged between Emile and me, and Emile discussed the details with the rest of the team while assessing the impact of this on the product, the available options ultimately converged to 3 different filters. We could have chosen 5 filters as well, or even more. But the trouble is that it was not just a matter of adding a switch… To enable the different filters, the eventual unit had to contain completely independent filter sections for each filter incarnation, complete with rather large and rather costly capacitors. This unavoidable aspect, along with the machined-from-solid-copper material enclosure that had to be ever larger to accommodate more filters, dictates the price, which as we added filters went north rather quickly.

3 final Filters​

What we ultimately ended up with as ideal is what we dubbed the “Default” filter. This is what is considered to be neutral, when referenced against a Battery Power Supply, in the Taiko Audio system. This Default Filter is basically filter 1 from this test, which turned out to be the ideally balanced version that I liked the most. Incidentally, Emile confirmed actually also preferring this filter himself, even though he loved some of the aspects of the second filter. In addition to the Default Filter, we included two alternative filters that allow pulling the presentation basically to opposing ends of the sonic spectrum. These two alternative filters allow tuning the sound towards either a darker, fuller, warmer, and more expansive sound, or a tighter, brighter, more incisive, and subjectively more detailed sound.

An important extra motivation for including more than a single filter is that experiments proved time and again that the balance will shift depending on the mains conditions, what kind of power supply is used, what other audio components are connected and how, and basically depending on a whole range of variables that exist in the real world. The shift could actually be so large that it resulted in a different filter preference.

With this in mind, the two alternative filters very effectively allow the user to tune the sound towards getting a neutral balance even with varying power supplies and mains conditions. Alternatively, the user can of course also deliberately divert from neutrality to taste.

And that is the story of how the Taiko Audio Extreme DC Power Distributor and its multiple filters was finalized!

View attachment 109124View attachment 109125

The Extreme DC Power Distributor offers one input, two identical Unfiltered Outputs, two identical Default Filter Outputs, and two different Alternative Filter Outputs.

Thank you Christian. It was suggested somewhere in this thread previously that Taiko was considering a "junior" version of the BPS. Since you suggested the filter options on the DCD is dependent on the mains source and the specific type of LPS used, etc. I wonder if the following thought has merit. At the top end of your products line, it seems quite reasonable to offer the Full Monty BPS and either DCD as above with full filter options, or a similar DCD that is integrated with the BPS. However, I think there might be considerable interest for a "Jr" BPS to power only the switch and router and if that is the case, it would be lovely if it contained an internal DCD that might have only the "neutral" filter option rather than the 3 filter option in the current DCD? The obvious advantage would be a reduction in cost to the consumer yet it might also be an excellent value proposition as well. A "Jr" BPS with built in DCD with a dual output line "neutral" filter option for 10K seems very appealing to me!

 

[Taiko Audio]

i know that this grows geometrically, but what about 1 filter for router and a different one for switch? i'm sure folks here will extensively test that out!

Both hooked up to the same LPS (which is superior to 2 LPSs)? I see zero benefit in that.

also, do you have any observations on using 3 outputs and does adding a 3rd (e.g. for my sotm usb/aesebu reclocker) impact the sound?

Sure, if your LPS is up to the task, switch is 100mA, router 500mA, if you use fiber, each fiber module can add about another 100mA.

 

[jbrrp1]

Even more Filters​

After this, several more filter incarnations followed but by now, the trend had become abundantly clear. When the tonality, richness, and naturality were increased, the openness and resolution were decreased, and vice versa. The most natural filter was absolutely fantastic for vocals, piano, and acoustic instruments while the most accurate filter was an absolute party with anything electronic. Meanwhile, I also observed that acoustic bass benefited from both filters but in different manners. This coincides with what aspects we personally feel most personify actual live instruments. For one person, this might be tonality and timbral complexity while for another it might be speed and snappy transient behavior.

Whilst listening to all these differences, and considering how Emile and I seemed to have slightly different preferences, the idea formed to include more than a single filter in the final incarnation of the Extreme DC Power Distributor.

As this idea was ping-ponged between Emile and me, and Emile discussed the details with the rest of the team while assessing the impact of this on the product, the available options ultimately converged to 3 different filters. We could have chosen 5 filters as well, or even more. But the trouble is that it was not just a matter of adding a switch… To enable the different filters, the eventual unit had to contain completely independent filter sections for each filter incarnation, complete with rather large and rather costly capacitors. This unavoidable aspect, along with the machined-from-solid-copper material enclosure that had to be ever larger to accommodate more filters, dictates the price, which as we added filters went north rather quickly.

3 final Filters​

What we ultimately ended up with as ideal is what we dubbed the “Default” filter. This is what is considered to be neutral, when referenced against a Battery Power Supply, in the Taiko Audio system. This Default Filter is basically filter 1 from this test, which turned out to be the ideally balanced version that I liked the most. Incidentally, Emile confirmed actually also preferring this filter himself, even though he loved some of the aspects of the second filter. In addition to the Default Filter, we included two alternative filters that allow pulling the presentation basically to opposing ends of the sonic spectrum. These two alternative filters allow tuning the sound towards either a darker, fuller, warmer, and more expansive sound, or a tighter, brighter, more incisive, and subjectively more detailed sound.

An important extra motivation for including more than a single filter is that experiments proved time and again that the balance will shift depending on the mains conditions, what kind of power supply is used, what other audio components are connected and how, and basically depending on a whole range of variables that exist in the real world. The shift could actually be so large that it resulted in a different filter preference.

With this in mind, the two alternative filters very effectively allow the user to tune the sound towards getting a neutral balance even with varying power supplies and mains conditions. Alternatively, the user can of course also deliberately divert from neutrality to taste.

And that is the story of how the Taiko Audio Extreme DC Power Distributor and its multiple filters was finalized!

View attachment 109124View attachment 109125

The Extreme DC Power Distributor offers one input, two identical Unfiltered Outputs, two identical Default Filter Outputs, and two different Alternative Filter Outputs.

Thanks for the story of evaluation, Christiaan! It's valuable to have the three choices for system tuning. One question about that: can one independently choose which filter to use for the Switch and the Router(e.g. Default-Alt1, say), or must they always be of the same type (e.g. Default-Default, Alt1-Alt1, etc.)?

 

[Rhapsody]

My iPad is unwired . I also use wifi from my router on the first floor of my house to a satellite in my sound room.. From that satellite I use RJ45 to the Taiko switch and DAC from switch to Extreme and I hear no noise whatsoever. That was what Emile suggested I do and I always use his suggestions. Seems just fine at my end

Steve, you NEVER hear noise that everyone is talking about. The only way you notice a reduction in noise is that when noise is reduced you hear more music. If someone is hearing "noise" then there is something drastically wrong with their set up. That's a different kind of noise when you can "hear the noise".

With your wireless set up you are not going to hear noise, BUT you will never know if your SQ can be bettered if you never heard an RJ45 CAT cable from your router to you Extreme or to the Switch/Extreme.

Sometimes due to logistics within the home it's just not feasible to run cable so you have to use the wireless. You might get the same SQ with the wireless vs hard wire, we use wireless at the shows all the time and get pretty good SQ.

BUT it definitely is possible that if you were hard wired from your router to the Extreme/switch you could possibly get an uptick in SQ. Maybe, maybe not, but I don't think it's automatic to know unless you try it both ways. Although understood that this might not be possible in your home.

 

[MusicFellow]

Thanks for the story of evaluation, Christiaan! It's valuable to have the three choices for system tuning. One question about that: can one independently choose which filter to use for the Switch and the Router(e.g. Default-Alt1, say), or must they always be of the same type (e.g. Default-Default, Alt1-Alt1, etc.)?

Yeah, somehow related I was wondering, if only one of the Alt 1 and Alt 2 exists, how can both Switch and Router use the same filter?
Christian, in your example when you say Filter 1 / 2 / 3 were used: Does that mean either the Switch / Router were connected (and the other in default) or both (although I can’t see how this is feasible having only one Alt 1 / 2) port?

 

[Kris]

This issue is technically over my head, but Kris' comment rings true to me. A wired connection from my ISP modem to the Switch sounds significantly better to me than a Wi-fi signal driving the switch. I currently use an LPS for the Switch and an Orbi mesh satellite that provides Wi-Fi service to the music room. If the source of noise/field loops that may account for the superiority of the wired connection is EMI coming from the LPS, would an effective remedy simply be to wrap the LPS in a small mu metal/copper foil enclosure (i.e., a mini Faraday cage)? I understand that a BPS would be the preferred approach, but mu metal/copper foil is a heck of a lot cheaper! (I assume wrapping the Orbi satellite AP itself in foil would not be a good idea.)

I was crazy to purchese few sheets of mumetal few years ago.
This was very effective but offered lifeless presentation.
I will try to find it and re-test in few different applications.
It must be a complex problem. Usually easy problems have easy solutions.
its not the case here.

 

[pleroma]

Even more Filters​

After this, several more filter incarnations followed but by now, the trend had become abundantly clear. When the tonality, richness, and naturality were increased, the openness and resolution were decreased, and vice versa. The most natural filter was absolutely fantastic for vocals, piano, and acoustic instruments while the most accurate filter was an absolute party with anything electronic. Meanwhile, I also observed that acoustic bass benefited from both filters but in different manners. This coincides with what aspects we personally feel most personify actual live instruments. For one person, this might be tonality and timbral complexity while for another it might be speed and snappy transient behavior.

Whilst listening to all these differences, and considering how Emile and I seemed to have slightly different preferences, the idea formed to include more than a single filter in the final incarnation of the Extreme DC Power Distributor.

As this idea was ping-ponged between Emile and me, and Emile discussed the details with the rest of the team while assessing the impact of this on the product, the available options ultimately converged to 3 different filters. We could have chosen 5 filters as well, or even more. But the trouble is that it was not just a matter of adding a switch… To enable the different filters, the eventual unit had to contain completely independent filter sections for each filter incarnation, complete with rather large and rather costly capacitors. This unavoidable aspect, along with the machined-from-solid-copper material enclosure that had to be ever larger to accommodate more filters, dictates the price, which as we added filters went north rather quickly.

3 final Filters​

What we ultimately ended up with as ideal is what we dubbed the “Default” filter. This is what is considered to be neutral, when referenced against a Battery Power Supply, in the Taiko Audio system. This Default Filter is basically filter 1 from this test, which turned out to be the ideally balanced version that I liked the most. Incidentally, Emile confirmed actually also preferring this filter himself, even though he loved some of the aspects of the second filter. In addition to the Default Filter, we included two alternative filters that allow pulling the presentation basically to opposing ends of the sonic spectrum. These two alternative filters allow tuning the sound towards either a darker, fuller, warmer, and more expansive sound, or a tighter, brighter, more incisive, and subjectively more detailed sound.

An important extra motivation for including more than a single filter is that experiments proved time and again that the balance will shift depending on the mains conditions, what kind of power supply is used, what other audio components are connected and how, and basically depending on a whole range of variables that exist in the real world. The shift could actually be so large that it resulted in a different filter preference.

With this in mind, the two alternative filters very effectively allow the user to tune the sound towards getting a neutral balance even with varying power supplies and mains conditions. Alternatively, the user can of course also deliberately divert from neutrality to taste.

And that is the story of how the Taiko Audio Extreme DC Power Distributor and its multiple filters was finalized!

View attachment 109124View attachment 109125

The Extreme DC Power Distributor offers one input, two identical Unfiltered Outputs, two identical Default Filter Outputs, and two different Alternative Filter Outputs.

Were you guys streaming, local, both?

 

[jelt2359]

What is the rationale in providing two unfiltered outputs? I ask because given 6 outputs, it seems another choice could have been 2 each of filter 1, 2 and 3.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thanks for the story of evaluation, Christiaan! It's valuable to have the three choices for system tuning. One question about that: can one independently choose which filter to use for the Switch and the Router(e.g. Default-Alt1, say), or must they always be of the same type (e.g. Default-Default, Alt1-Alt1, etc.)?

Yes.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Yeah, somehow related I was wondering, if only one of the Alt 1 and Alt 2 exists, how can both Switch and Router use the same filter?
Christian, in your example when you say Filter 1 / 2 / 3 were used: Does that mean either the Switch / Router were connected (and the other in default) or both (although I can’t see how this is feasible having only one Alt 1 / 2) port?

You have a lot of tuning options, you’d likely use atleast 1 default filter, the other would be unfiltered, default aswell, or alt 1 or 2. Then there will be a difference when using a filter with a different device, almost too many options already.

 

[Taiko Audio]

What is the rationale in providing two unfiltered outputs? I ask because given 6 outputs, it seems another choice could have been 2 each of filter 1, 2 and 3.

They’re basically free additions, and perhaps you’d like to use one.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Were you guys streaming, local, both?

Streaming but the difference is roughly the same for local or streaming.

 

[Kris]

I'm afraid not, it's a particularly complex issue to actually get rid of. A BPS being the best, if not only, solution I can currently think of, everything else is just band-aids

If this is the cure.….there is one solution
Create BPS for all other components . Please .

There is more Than a ground noise.
I was conditioning the neutral wire With expert help. That is a giant rabbit hole.
Dont try it home ! This might be dengerous if you dont know what you are doing.

Seems like we can improve ground and neutral only to some extent,
and real cure is in Emils hands and his GAN technology.
Please consider Taiko System BPS in the future.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thank you Christian. It was suggested somewhere in this thread previously that Taiko was considering a "junior" version of the BPS. Since you suggested the filter options on the DCD is dependent on the mains source and the specific type of LPS used, etc. I wonder if the following thought has merit. At the top end of your products line, it seems quite reasonable to offer the Full Monty BPS and either DCD as above with full filter options, or a similar DCD that is integrated with the BPS. However, I think there might be considerable interest for a "Jr" BPS to power only the switch and router and if that is the case, it would be lovely if it contained an internal DCD that might have only the "neutral" filter option rather than the 3 filter option in the current DCD? The obvious advantage would be a reduction in cost to the consumer yet it might also be an excellent value proposition as well. A "Jr" BPS with built in DCD with a dual output line "neutral" filter option for 10K seems very appealing to me!

We’ll have a “Jr” BPS. It can power the switch + router for about 36 hours but we’re assuming a once every 24 hours recharge (you can configure the time at which you want it to automatically recharge).

 

[Kris]

Steve, you NEVER hear noise that everyone is talking about. The only way you notice a reduction in noise is that when noise is reduced you hear more music. If someone is hearing "noise" then there is something drastically wrong with their set up. That's a different kind of noise when you can "hear the noise".

With your wireless set up you are not going to hear noise, BUT you will never know if your SQ can be bettered if you never heard an RJ45 CAT cable from your router to you Extreme or to the Switch/Extreme.

Sometimes due to logistics within the home it's jus not feasible to run cable so you have to use the wireless. You might get the same SQ with the wireless vs hard wire, we use wireless at the shows all the time and get pretty good SQ.

BUT it definitely is possible that if you were hard wired from your router to the Extreme/switch you could possibly get an uptick in SQ. Maybe, maybe not, but I don't think it's automatic to know unless you try it both ways. Although understood that this might not be possible in your home.

Exactly .
The more you experiment the more possibilities for improvement you find.
Not all would work , but some for sure.

for last 4 years my listening room is a giant collection of many different devices , cables, isolators and other twicks and I permanently re-test all options.
I know it is disease , but I am sure Emile will find a cure for that

 

[cat6man]

Streaming but the difference is roughly the same for local or streaming.

Since WAV >> FLAC (though the gap is closing with the latest xdms backend update), wouldn't BPS+local WAV+switch+router+distributor be the absolute baseline target against which all else is compared?

Also, could you discuss "roughly the same"? I assume you mean the filter preference order was similar. Is the delta between filters larger or smaller with local WAV files?

 

[marty]

We’ll have a “Jr” BPS. It can power the switch + router for about 36 hours but we’re assuming a once every 24 hours recharge (you can configure the time at which you want it to automatically recharge).

That sounds just perfect. I can only sit in the listening chair for about 12 hours at a time anyway and while meals can be brought to me, it's hard to manage bathroom breaks unless a new listening seat with built in urinal is going to be in your future product line. (You might get a few takers!)

 

[Taiko Audio]

Since WAV >> FLAC (though the gap is closing with the latest xdms backend update), wouldn't BPS+local WAV+switch+router+distributor be the absolute baseline target against which all else is compared?

Also, could you discuss "roughly the same"? I assume you mean the filter preference order was similar. Is the delta between filters larger or smaller with local WAV files?

WAV vs FLAC is unrelated to this, same relative delta.

 

[Taiko Audio]

That sounds just perfect. I can only sit in the listening chair for about 12 hours at a time anyway and while meals can be brought to me, it's hard to manage bathroom breaks unless a new listening seat with built in urinal is going to be in your future product line. (You might get a few takers!)

It would actually keep functioning while recharging, but it’ll be drawing power from the mains.