Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Di-fi]

Maybe it’s too early to give recommendations for linear power supplies feeding Taiko switch and Taiko router.
Right now I own a Ferrum Hypsos with my current Swisscom router.

Ferrum Hypsos: good enough for Taiko switch & Taiko router or a mismatch?
If mismatch, then I‘d keep it for the dirty router.

Recommendations for the linear power supplies?

Hi,
Feeling a bit lost regarding linear power supply (LPS) units? It has been mentioned here before I think but please take the time to read the gold standard in LPS comparison by Jay at Audio Bacon (2021/08/06). Do not try to pick out the best right away but focus on how they differ in sound quality and what you might be looking for. Note that connected audio devices are sensible in a different degree to different LPS units, but Emile seems to indicate that difference in SQ (''tuning'') is possible by swapping an LPS.

There are quite a few very good units and only a few stand out like for example Sean Jacobs (being one of the most expensive). Do you have to go right away to the top? Not necessarily, only you or other users can tell.

In adding a LPS you are looking for a synergy resulting in improved SQ to your ears, usually hard to generalize for a specific brand when people have different hi-fi setups. But here we have a different situation. Taiko try to control the whole chain between router and Extreme so that in theory every complete Taiko setup will sound exactly the same anywhere on the planet (before the downstream part of course). Over time Taiko users will agree what are good LPS units in the Taiko + switch + router setup with a much higher chance recommended units will also sound good in your setup.

You could wait for those results or start trying different units yourself.

The World's Best Audiophile Linear Power Supplies - Audio Bacon

The world's best linear power supplies for audiophiles. Which power supply will sound best with your gear? This massive review will help you!

audiobacon.net

(...) Any audiophile knows: having high-performance linear power supplies is essential for an enthralling listening experience. Sure it can sound decent and engaging without one – but you simply won’t be able to achieve something closer to life. Check out the reasons why here.

But just buying any linear power supply isn’t always going to sound better. It has to be synergistic with your other components – and personal proclivities. The motivation for this massive survey is to guide you to a power supply that may work for you – and your gear.(...)

- - -

PS. Next: D(A)C cables, Ethernet cables, fiber - and isolation ;-)

 

[joet]

Hi,
Feeling a bit lost regarding linear power supplies (LPS) units? It has been mentioned here before I think but please take the time to read the gold standard in LPS comparison by Jay at Audio Bacon (2021/08/06). Do not try to pick out the best right away but focus on how they differ in sound quality and what you might be looking for. Note that connected audio devices are sensible in a different degree to different LPS units, but Emile seems to indicate that difference in SQ (''tuning'') is possible by swapping an LPS.

There are quite a few very good units and only a few stand out like for example Sean Jacobs (being one of the most expensive). Do you have to go right away to the top? Not necessarily, only you or other users can tell.

In adding a LPS you are looking for a synergy resulting in improved SQ to your ears, usually hard to generalize for a specific brand when people have different hi-fi setups. But here we have a different situation. Taiko try to control the whole chain between router and Extreme so that in theory every complete Taiko setup will sound exactly the same anywhere on the planet (before the downstream part of course). Over time Taiko users will agree upon what are good LPS units in the Taiko + switch + router setup with a much higher chance recommended units will also sound good in your setup.

You could wait for those results or start trying different units yourself.

The World's Best Audiophile Linear Power Supplies - Audio Bacon

The world's best linear power supplies for audiophiles. Which power supply will sound best with your gear? This massive review will help you!

audiobacon.net

(...) Any audiophile knows: having high-performance linear power supplies is essential for an enthralling listening experience. Sure it can sound decent and engaging without one – but you simply won’t be able to achieve something closer to life. Check out the reasons why here.

But just buying any linear power supply isn’t always going to sound better. It has to be synergistic with your other components – and personal proclivities. The motivation for this massive survey is to guide you to a power supply that may work for you – and your gear.(...)

- - -

PS. Next: DC cables, Ethernet cables, fiber and isolation ;-)

For what it’s worth, I read the Audio Bacon posts regularly, I like his approach and have used his advice. However, on more than one occasion his observations didn’t jibe with my experience when I listened to the reviewed cables/components at home. One relevant example, he said the Mojo LPS should be plugged into the wall and not the power conditioner, that wasn’t the case for me at all.

 

[nenon]

I think we've all been conditioned into believing in something which does in fact not exist. There's no such thing as "internet noise" traveling through your home router. There's noise caused BY activity due to the need to process more network packets, more processing means more noise in the device performing the processing. Naturally there's download speed, where it takes a longer or shorter time to receive the requested data, which translates into longer lower intensity processing, or shorter higher intensity processing, creating a different noise spectrum.

This made me think that isolating an "audio" network before hitting the Taiko router might be beneficial.
For example:
- my home network is 192.168.1.0/24
- create an audio network 192.168.2.0/24 on my main router
- connect the Taiko router to a port on my main router that is configured in the 192.168.2.0/24 network
This will prevent the Taiko router from seeing a lot of my home devices chatter, which will reduce the processing the Taiko router does, which should have a "healthier" noise spectrum.

It might be worth trying, but I bet the result will be dependant on a lot of factors - what your main router is, how it is powered, what your home network looks like, etc.

 

[Di-fi]

For what it’s worth, I read the Audio Bacon posts regularly, I like his approach and have used his advice. However, on more than one occasion his observations didn’t jibe with my experience when I listened to the reviewed cables/components at home. One relevant example, he said the Mojo LPS should be plugged into the wall and not the power conditioner, that wasn’t the case for me at all.

Thanks. It will always depend your ears and setup. That's exactly why this hobby is thriving ;-)

''Do not try to pick out the best right away but focus on how they differ in sound quality and what you might be looking for. Note that connected audio devices are sensible in a different degree to different LPS units''

One can never tell in advance, whether it be an LPS, a cable or the quality of your power at home. But maybe there is a better chance to find common good results in the Taiko situation due to it's standardization with Taiko designed components, so hopefully for once you do not have to try them all yourself. But then again, some prefer to do exactly that.

 

[John T]

It sounds like what @John T has with the un-shared rural fiber line is the equivalent of my local ATT “Enterprise” service. The Enterprise service around here (not rural) is prohibitively expensive however.

Does sharing a fiber, or cable line, with neighbors produce the equivalent of “more processing activity” that Emile refers to?

That was why I asked, evidently not? Here (AT&T) they offer what you have as ''Dedicated Fiber" Will. I looked into it when I became desperate and no fiber seemed as though it was ever going to become available. Your not kidding when you say expensive! Funny thing is they advertise as symmetrical Download/Upload. With my situation 1 gig I'm getting symmetrical speeds. On a older ipad 500 up/down. Do you get symmetrical speeds with Enterprise? Just curios....

 

[cat6man]

This made me think that isolating an "audio" network before hitting the Taiko router might be beneficial.
For example:
- my home network is 192.168.1.0/24
- create an audio network 192.168.2.0/24 on my main router
- connect the Taiko router to a port on my main router that is configured in the 192.168.2.0/24 network
This will prevent the Taiko router from seeing a lot of my home devices chatter, which will reduce the processing the Taiko router does, which should have a "healthier" noise spectrum..

I assume that the taiko router is going to do this to create less processing at the switch. This sounds like you propose doing it twice, on both the main and taiko router.....interesting.

Can anyone here provide a short explanation of port forwarding?
Or even better, a link to a *good* explanation website

 

[wil]

That was why I asked, evidently not? Here (AT&T) they offer what you have as ''Dedicated Fiber" Will. I looked into it when I became desperate and no fiber seemed as though it was ever going to become available. Your not kidding when you say expensive! Funny thing is they advertise as symmetrical Download/Upload. With my situation 1 gig I'm getting symmetrical speeds. On a older ipad 500 up/down. Do you get symmetrical speeds with Enterprise? Just curios....

I don't use Enterprise. It's un-godly expensive. It's designed for corporations who can afford it. I do use their Small Business service which is reasonable. This was recommended to me by my local networking guy as the best and most stable way to bypass the ATT Gateway modem/router so as to use a custom router (like Taiko). It is symmetrical upload/download at about 100 bps (for gig service). I has very low latency which is more important than speed.

 

[oldmustang]

That was why I asked, evidently not? Here (AT&T) they offer what you have as ''Dedicated Fiber" Will. I looked into it when I became desperate and no fiber seemed as though it was ever going to become available. Your not kidding when you say expensive! Funny thing is they advertise as symmetrical Download/Upload. With my situation 1 gig I'm getting symmetrical speeds. On a older ipad 500 up/down. Do you get symmetrical speeds with Enterprise? Just curios....

Symmetrical speeds a la Enterprise class fiber may give you bragging rights among your friends as far as upload speeds go, but unless you have a need to upload large quantities of data (hosting a website, running a medium or large business, running an FTP board -- if those are even a thing anymore) they are way overkill for normal home and audio uses, which tend to be highly asymmetrical favoring download speeds.

Steve Z

 

[John T]

I don't use Enterprise. It's un-godly expensive. It's designed for corporations who can afford it. I do use their Small Business service which is reasonable. This was recommended to me by my local networking guy as the best and most stable way to bypass the ATT Gateway modem/router so as to use a custom router (like Taiko). It is symmetrical upload/download at about 100 bps (for gig service). I has very low latency which is more important than speed.

I see, yes Dedicated Fiber is for small business like Enterprise. It would have been like having a mortgage!

 

[joet]

Forgive my impatience, but is the next batch of switches still going to ship this week?

 

[Di-fi]

This made me think that isolating an "audio" network before hitting the Taiko router might be beneficial.
For example:
- my home network is 192.168.1.0/24
- create an audio network 192.168.2.0/24 on my main router
- connect the Taiko router to a port on my main router that is configured in the 192.168.2.0/24 network
This will prevent the Taiko router from seeing a lot of my home devices chatter, which will reduce the processing the Taiko router does, which should have a "healthier" noise spectrum.

It might be worth trying, but I bet the result will be dependant on a lot of factors - what your main router is, how it is powered, what your home network looks like, etc.

Hi @nenon,

I am very interested in network isolation and the benefits for SQ. Thanks to reading threads like these and in particular how Taiko has been developing its own isolated network and also my own experience I am astounded how big an influence the network has on sound. You proposed isolating an "audio" network however after reading the Taiko Audio Router Guide V6 (see excerpt below) it already seems an audio exclusive network ‘(...)unimpaired by typical home network processes and traffic (see p. 2)’.
Edit: after re-reading your post I realize you are talking about additional beneficial virtual isolation that I won't dispute here (but read until the end please). The modem/router directly connected to the incoming signal from the internet provider becomes perceptible to interference because it works as a ‘splitter’ managing both home network and Taiko Audio network.

Interestingly in Mono and Stereo 2023\04 under features & configuration they write (bold & underlined by me):

The most support-intensive option would be to use our upcoming Router to replace your current Router serving your entire network where you create separate networks for your audio system and your other home network devices. This was the original goal, and still is an option, however it is not the best performing option from a sound quality POV.

Current intended configuration
We get the best result by far by using the Router to create an exclusive audio network consisting of 5 devices:
1) Router
2) Wi-fi Access Point (AP)
3) Switch
4) Server
5) Remote control device (Ipad or Android tablet)

The amount of "traffic" created on your home network does not affect this stability. We tested high data rate downloads, 4K video streaming etc, and this is virtually undetectable whereas it does noticeably impact things without the Router in place.

Another interesting discovery is remote control device to server connection speed/latency has an effect, faster is better here, a faster Ipad, or a less cluttered Ipad with less apps which create background activity installed, sounds better. And this goes for both local file and streaming playback.

So while being extremely precautious isolating the isolated (!) Taiko router even more, an other potential benefit for SQ is to choose not to make connections to the Taiko Audio Routers additional RJ45 ethernet ports because “(…) when you create a new network for audio, using a dedicated router, with a bare minimum of devices, with overall very low activity, and the activity is controlled on the router and connected devices, any additional device creating additional and uncontrolled network activity suddenly does become noticeable.” (see p. 5)

Taiko Audio Router guide-V06 (latest *)
www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-cr%C3%A8me-de-la-cr%C3%A8me.27433/post-874097

(...) A basic setup would be for the user to connect the Extreme Music Server to a generic router directly or via a generic network switch. This setup can be upgraded by adding the Taiko Audio Extreme Network Card and Extreme Network Switch to achieve a significant improvement in Sound Quality. To raise the bar even further, the user can add the Extreme Router to create an audio exclusive (isolated) network unimpaired by typical home network processes and traffic.

The Router has a single WAN ("input") network port which connects to your home network to provide internet access for the audio network. It has 3 separately configurable outputs, one of which connects to your music server or, preferably, the Extreme Switch. the 2 others can be used for additional desired connectivity, such as for example a dedicated wifi Access Point and/or a wired control computer (...)

* Taiko website directs to an older guide-V01

Last but not least, talking about isolation, on the Taiko Audio Router PCB one can see on the left side a SIM card slot. The only purpose i can imagine is for a data connection to a mobile network. In my setup I am currently testing a 4g router vs. a conventional router and a Wi-Fi router and it sounds very promising. Goodbye home network, Hello audio network isolation!

Cheerio

photos taken from : www.monoandstereo.com/2023/04/new-taiko-audio-extreme-router.html

 

[John T]

Symmetrical speeds a la Enterprise class fiber may give you bragging rights among your friends as far as upload speeds go, but unless you have a need to upload large quantities of data (hosting a website, running a medium or large business, running an FTP board -- if those are even a thing anymore) they are way overkill for normal home and audio uses, which tend to be highly asymmetrical favoring download speeds.

Steve Z

After living with satellite for decades let me Basque In the Glory Steve. LOL!! I could care less about upload speeds. Especially in my world. The point I was trying to make was AT&T sells the symmetrical as a huge bonus. Because Dedicated Fiber/Enterprise is meant for small business. What they are charging is insanely expensive and I'm getting the same for a fraction of what they charge....I dealt with AT&T (UNSCRUPULOUS) for over a year attempting to figure something out, this is also why I was curious as to Will's situation...

 

[wil]

This made me think that isolating an "audio" network before hitting the Taiko router might be beneficial.
For example:
- my home network is 192.168.1.0/24
- create an audio network 192.168.2.0/24 on my main router
- connect the Taiko router to a port on my main router that is configured in the 192.168.2.0/24 network
This will prevent the Taiko router from seeing a lot of my home devices chatter, which will reduce the processing the Taiko router does, which should have a "healthier" noise spectrum.

It might be worth trying, but I bet the result will be dependant on a lot of factors - what your main router is, how it is powered, what your home network looks like, etc.

If I’m not mistaken, I think this is what my network guy did once we switched over to small business AT&T fiber. He assigned one static IP to the home network router and one static IP to my audio router.

 

[cat6man]

If I’m not mistaken, I think this is what my network guy did once we switched over to small business AT&T fiber. He assigned one static IP to the home network router and one static IP to my audio router.

which specific ports need to be forward from the home network router to the audio network router?

 

[wil]

which specific ports need to be forward from the home network router to the audio network router?

If I understand your question: I have two routers coming off the Modem -- one router for home use and one audio router for the audio only. Each has it's own static IP. So the two networks are separate from each other.

 

[microstrip]

Does anyone have a Taiko Extreme connected to a Nagra HD DAC X?

 

[seatrope]

If I’m not mistaken, I think this is what my network guy did once we switched over to small business AT&T fiber. He assigned one static IP to the home network router and one static IP to my audio router.

No, what @nenon is proposing here is two different SUBnets not two different static IPs. Each /24 subnet has 254 useable IP addresses in it.
I’ve had the Extreme in its on isolated VLAN (subnet) for a long time now. Then you can set ACLs to prevent ingress although you get rid of a lot of the multicast chatter which happens on a busy subnet.

 

[Raker24]

Does anyone have a Taiko Extreme connected to a Nagra HD DAC X?

I used to for two years, until I replaced the Nagra HD DAC X with a Taiko D700

 

[Blackmorec]

Based on my past 5 year history of experimenting with and optimising my network I believe there are 3 elements to optimising sound quality in music streaming.

The better the quality of your audio network’s Physical Layer, the better the sound‘s ‘presentation’ ie. Your brain can construct a more realistic, live sounding soundscape of musicians spontaneously making music in a venue, recorded or engineered

For ALL network components, Better in = Better out. The better the stream quality going into a component, the better its output. Better = less noise, less jitter, less vibration, less cable loss, better power supplies, lower traffic, etc.

The less traffic on the ENTIRE audio network, the better the sound quality. The SOONER you can separate the audio related stream from the rest of the household demand, the better.

If you do the separation WITH the Taiko router, it will not sound as good as doing it before the router, simply on a better in = better out basis. In 5 years of experimenting and reading others’ experiences, I have never seen this Axiom disproven. Improve the input measurably and the output will improve.

So what that tells me is:

Ideally, your Taiko router and switch should be vibration isolated, have the finest power supplies and DC cables attached and have all non-audio related traffic separated off before either device.

In the end, the biggest influence on what you hear will be the power supplies employed, because they generate the bit stream and its the bit stream‘s physical quality that has the most impact on the output of your DAC. Assuming a bit-perfect stream of bits, its how the bits are structured and how much ’extraneous’ voltage and timing deviations are built-in to their structure that matters most.

In my network I had 6 streams of Sean Jacob’s ARC6DC4 power and extensive anti-vibration measures and the resulting sound was utterly gorgeous. That stream was upgraded from DC3 to DC4 to ARC6 and each upgrade brought huge improvements. Upgrading DC cables from really good Neotech to Mundorf silver/gold also brought jaw-dropping changes, mainly to purity, holographic imaging and a sense of reality and being present in the actual venue as the music was being created. Throughout those upgrades my perception gradually changed from listening to really good quality recorded music, to being at a live performance of the music. All the increased information I heard was the result of my brain being able to clearly resolve more information from the resulting soundwaves. The information was already there, but the accompanying ‘noise’ of varying sorts meant that my brain couldn’t resolve it from other parts of the music. Drop the noise and that impacts the brain’s ability to resolve more.

The BIG deal architecturally for a network built for sound quality is that as the stream progresses from incoming wall to final client, it should encounter constantly improving physical layer specs. For example, there no point having a low noise stage, low vibration stage or low jitter stage if the next stage or any downstream stages are worse. In audio, the network is a Stream Conditioning process, which should constantly improve the physical layer until what reaches your DAC or Server is as close to perfect as it can be.

Unfortunately I can no longer hear any of this due to complete hearing loss in one ear 6 weeks ago. I just wanted to pass on some of what I’d learned. And yes, my entire system is now for sale as I need to morph it into something more suitable and fun for a person with single sided deafness.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

What I have found is that as the quality of the playback has improved with the Extreme, including XDMS, the new card and switch, poor recordings sound even worse. I guess one can hear all the warts even more.

On the positive side, good recordings sound even better.

Even though mediocre or bad recordings are more exposed with XDMS, the new card, and the new switch, I find there is also a more vivacious, more expressive quality to the music, making even bad recordings more exciting to listen to. This is not of audiophile quality, says my mind, but it's still involving and engaging to listen to, says my heart.