Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[simorag]

Question for @EuroDriver about XDMS from a headphones-first user: is implementing cross-feed a possibility you are considering?

After having experimented with the DAVE crossfeed options for the last 5 years, I am now totally addicted to it, to the point I now find it indispensable for most recordings, although I have found less accomplished implementations may have a pronounced detrimental effect that negates the imaging benefits.

 

[Blackmorec]

A few more send in feedback after this post, updated numbers, format adjusted for clarity:

Audiophile switch preferred by a large degree: 4%
Audiophile switch preferred by a small degree: 12%
"Cheap" standard switch preferred over an audiophile switch: 44%
"Cheap" standard switch preferred over direct connection to router (did not try an audiophile switch): 28%
Direct connection to router preferred: 12%
Unshielded cat5 or 6 cable preferred over "shielded?" audiophile cable: 94%
Copper preferred over fiber: 100%

Hi Emile,
Very interesting statistics. However there are very different to where we were say a year ago, where Fibre was the unequivocal recommendation, better cables de rigueur, and cascaded switches the path to ever more satisfying SQ. Clearly the above findings cannot be generalized to other servers (at least not to mine) although there are cases of course where poor address handling in routers and switches or undesirable continuity across screened cables would explain some preferences.
But on the whole, these findings are very different from a year ago and very Extreme specific, so I‘m really curious to understand what has driven the changes. I know that certain knowledge constitutes valuable IP so without giving away any ‘secrets’ I would really love to know what elements have recently been applied to the Extreme to make it so much more independent of network quality?
In my mind at least I am now aware of 2 routes to obtain oustanding SQ from digital streaming, a Taiko Extreme or a highly optimised network. BTW I’m not claiming equivalence…as I‘ve never made the comparison. All I’m saying is that an optimized network can bring huge rewards and we know the same is definitely true for an Extreme.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile, will the new network card make a profit in SQ with any switch, or only with the new Taiko Switch?

Probably with any but it's been designed as a package.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Looks like its going to be a Tuesday delivery. No movement on the status till this moment.

Out of the 28 Extremes we shipped last week only 4 have arrived so far. We have hardly seen next day deliveries since Corona struck, and up till today shipping services have not returned to normal.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Hey everyone,

For my first post I just wanted to say "Hi" - I've been lurking here for a while and recently placed my order for an Extreme, which should be delivered in early June.

This respectful and discerning community and your obvious acclaim for the Extreme and the Taiko crew was a huge factor in my decision to take the plunge, thank you - I'm very excited to hear it, and the forthcoming hardware products and software updates.

Cheers!

Congratulations and welcome to the What's Best Forum!

 

[Taiko Audio]

Very early hours, already in awe

​

Exploring the space between the individual singers of the choir in the opening track has never been so easy and natural, the ambience reverberation and atmospherics are so rich (of color and information), especially apparent during arias and recitativos ...

It seems that the burn-in is not going to be THAT painful after all

Pleased to hear it does not disappoint

 

[Taiko Audio]

I was saying many times that wifi is BAD. Especially 5ghz.
if you have to have wifi than 2,4 is much less destructive.
but with that you need TotalDAC ethernet cable that significantly reduces the noise passing from access point.

I am glad you like it !

This is not always true, I did post before that we used 2.4GHz and disabled 5GHz in our old building. We are now doing the opposite, we have disabled 2.4GHz and use 5GHz. The difference being that we now use 5 Wi-Fi access points to have good coverage of the entire building with full signal strength everywhere. 2.4GHz has a longer Wi-Fi range which apparently sounded better then 5GHz before, but logic dictates (Hi Spock) simply because of a more stable connection.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Hi Emile,
Very interesting statistics. However there are very different to where we were say a year ago, where Fibre was the unequivocal recommendation, better cables de rigueur, and cascaded switches the path to ever more satisfying SQ. Clearly the above findings cannot be generalized to other servers (at least not to mine) although there are cases of course where poor address handling in routers and switches or undesirable continuity across screened cables would explain some preferences.
But on the whole, these findings are very different from a year ago and very Extreme specific, so I‘m really curious to understand what has driven the changes. I know that certain knowledge constitutes valuable IP so without giving away any ‘secrets’ I would really love to know what elements have recently been applied to the Extreme to make it so much more independent of network quality?
In my mind at least I am now aware of 2 routes to obtain oustanding SQ from digital streaming, a Taiko Extreme or a highly optimised network. BTW I’m not claiming equivalence…as I‘ve never made the comparison. All I’m saying is that an optimized network can bring huge rewards and we know the same is definitely true for an Extreme.

A year ago we were mainly guessing and wondering. Today we have developed software affecting network sensitivity, went through 4 switch designs, 2 network card designs, and have a prototype router up and running. What once was mysterious is not mysterious anymore today. If you're interested I suggest to read the last few 100 posts in this thread which details a few aspects of the OS update we launched recently causing a change in network interaction. These statistics are all post update. You could consider this phase 1 out of 3 phases leading to a complete solution we're launching over the course of this year.

You could call it "learning on the job"

 

[Taiko Audio]

I'm still a bit behind on working through the rather massive e-mail surge of the past weeks but I do expect to have fully caught up before the weekend. The answer to the bulk of the questions for those waiting for a reply is:

You have a 16% chance you will prefer and "Audiophile" switch, a 72% chance you will prefer a "cheap" switch and a 12% chance you will prefer a direct connection to your router. Furthermore the chance you will prefer fiber over copper directly into the Extreme is now very small. You have a 94% chance you will prefer an unshielded network cable directly into the Extreme and there is insufficient data on "disconnected shielding" versus no shielding for me to say anything reliable about that.

 

[Blackmorec]

This is not always true, I did post before that we used 2.4GHz and disabled 5GHz in our old building. We are now doing the opposite, we have disabled 2.4GHz and use 5GHz. The difference being that we now use 5 Wi-Fi access points to have good coverage of the entire building with full signal strength everywhere. 2.4GHz has a longer Wi-Fi range which apparently sounded better then 5GHz before, but logic dictates (Hi Spock) simply because of a more stable connection.

I think there are as well some other considerations that speak in 5GHz’s favour.
A 5GHz band is a lot quicker, has greater bandwidth and thanks to tri-band routers can more easily be dedicated to audio without sharing with any other clients. This means that what little network activity there is is over very quickly. In addition, 5GHz penetrates buildings less well so for a dedicated band you can create a ‘low power hot spot’ with an extender/bridge outside the hi-fi room. The bridge receives files and bi-directionally transmits commands. Following the wi-fi bridge is a great place for a switch, ideally with a great power supply and low noise switch chip there purely to clean, retime and retransmit the stream. Putting a really good power supply on the bridge also brings substantial benefits.

 

[Blackmorec]

A year ago we were mainly guessing and wondering. Today we have developed software affecting network sensitivity, went through 4 switch designs, 2 network card designs, and have a prototype router up and running. What once was mysterious is not mysterious anymore today. If you're interested I suggest to read the last few 100 posts in this thread which details a few aspects of the OS update we launched recently causing a change in network interaction. These statistics are all post update. You could consider this phase 1 out of 3 phases leading to a complete solution we're launching over the course of this year.

You could call it "learning on the job"

Thanks Emile….just the answer I was looking for. The difference between last year is that the Extreme is now able to do the ‘clean-up’ and ‘music extraction’ that the network partly needed to do last year. No magic sauce, just good old hard work, sweat and persistence.
Learning on the job indeed! I could also call it ‘extremely effective & productive R&D’’
I’m looking foreward to one day listening to your phase 3

 

[aLLeARS]

After simplifying the IT signal chain, I have more to report. The CAT5e plenum cable is stiff as far as cables are concerned and I’ve always found stiff wire to taker longer to break-in than soft or limp wire. This is no exception. After several days of use this cable sounds very natural.

I’m currently using Belden 7928A cable and Molex 0449150021 connectors.

The cable is plenum rated and uses 24-gauge solid copper conductors with FEP insulation. The connectors use pins with 50micron gold plating. The pins attach directly to the cable with no additional internal contacts or circuit boards like most of the bulkier CAT connectors use.

Now that the cable was fully run-in the next thing to try was replacing the stock switching supply that the Amplifi router uses. I have a spare Farad 12v supply now that I’m no longer using switches. I picked up a 2x2.5mm female barrel to USB-C male adaptor so I could use the Farad supply with the Amplifi router. (Amazon.com: Cablecc USB 3.1 Type C USB-C to DC 5.5 2.5mm Power Jack Extension Charge Cable for Air Pro 10cm : Electronics).


I laid it out on the floor of the listening room so I could easily swap out cables and power supplies before committing to install it permanently.

The difference between the stock supply and the Farad is large. Using a better power supply brings all the same positives to the router that it does with most other audio devices. Things are more analog and organic sounding. Midrange and highs are smoother. Bass is more powerful and weighty. Low level details that were not audible before are there now. Micro and macro dynamics have improved.

IT signal chain: Dedicated IP address, Arris SB8200 with LPS, 30’ CAT5e plenum cable, Amplifi router with LPS, 20’ CAT5e plenum cable, Extreme.

I think I will stop here and wait for the Taiko switch, card and router until I try any further changes to the IT signal path.

My system has never sounded as good as it does now. Time to turn off the lights and listen.

 

[QuantumWave]

After simplifying the IT signal chain, I have more to report. The CAT5e plenum cable is stiff as far as cables are concerned and I’ve always found stiff wire to taker longer to break-in than soft or limp wire. This is no exception. After several days of use this cable sounds very natural.

I’m currently using Belden 7928A cable and Molex 0449150021 connectors.

The cable is plenum rated and uses 24-gauge solid copper conductors with FEP insulation. The connectors use pins with 50micron gold plating. The pins attach directly to the cable with no additional internal contacts or circuit boards like most of the bulkier CAT connectors use.

Now that the cable was fully run-in the next thing to try was replacing the stock switching supply that the Amplifi router uses. I have a spare Farad 12v supply now that I’m no longer using switches. I picked up a 2x2.5mm female barrel to USB-C male adaptor so I could use the Farad supply with the Amplifi router. (Amazon.com: Cablecc USB 3.1 Type C USB-C to DC 5.5 2.5mm Power Jack Extension Charge Cable for Air Pro 10cm : Electronics).
View attachment 90511

I laid it out on the floor of the listening room so I could easily swap out cables and power supplies before committing to install it permanently.

The difference between the stock supply and the Farad is large. Using a better power supply brings all the same positives to the router that it does with most other audio devices. Things are more analog and organic sounding. Midrange and highs are smoother. Bass is more powerful and weighty. Low level details that were not audible before are there now. Micro and macro dynamics have improved.

IT signal chain: Dedicated IP address, Arris SB8200 with LPS, 30’ CAT5e plenum cable, Amplifi router with LPS, 20’ CAT5e plenum cable, Extreme.

I think I will stop here and wait for the Taiko switch, card and router until I try any further changes to the IT signal path.

My system has never sounded as good as it does now. Time to turn off the lights and listen.

Great report, many thanks! Just a quick note, the amplifi is 9V, 12V might possibly long-term be a safety hazard? Although possibly within tolerance.

 

[EuroDriver]

Question for @EuroDriver about XDMS from a headphones-first user: is implementing cross-feed a possibility you are considering?

After having experimented with the DAVE crossfeed options for the last 5 years, I am now totally addicted to it, to the point I now find it indispensable for most recordings, although I have found less accomplished implementations may have a pronounced detrimental effect that negates the imaging benefits.

I have to confess I am not a fan of crossfeed having tried it on a highly rated "Pro Audio" DAC.

Our software to do list is long, and I think it will be quite a while before we would have the time to experiment with crossfeed

 

[howiebrou]

Out of the 28 Extremes we shipped last week only 4 have arrived so far. We have hardly seen next day deliveries since Corona struck, and up till today shipping services have not returned to normal.

I was wondering why I found 24 Extremes on my doorstep. You want them back or can I daisy chain them?

 

[theaudiogeek]

I was wondering why I found 24 Extremes on my doorstep. You want them back or can I daisy chain them?

Nothing has moved out of customs/Fedex yet. Mine is still sitting in Memphis, TN.

 

[howiebrou]

Nothing has moved out of customs/Fedex yet. Mine is still sitting in Memphis, TN.

Hope you get it soon. Must feel like nails on a chalk board.

 

[RUIN*ish]

After 5 phone calls (over this week) to Fedex customer support, a very nice person called me back yesterday.
She explained there is a huge backlog and not enough workers at the Memphis hub...
She said, she'll do her best to get it to me tomorrow.
Apparently, she has done her best.
It left Memphis at 3:11 this morning with a delivery of before noon today.
Fingers crossed....
Mn

 

[Blackmorec]

Hi Emile,
One more follow-up thanks. I‘m trying to understand why an unscreened cable would sound better than an optimally screened cable. Applying some logic I come to the following: Is this feasible?
A screen does certain things to the signal but prevents other things from happening that are more damaging. A non screened cable picks up a lot of damaging noise but isnt affected by a screen. When the Extreme effectively removes all the added grunge and extracts the music the unscreened cable ends up sounding better because there’s no screen related affects.? What this infers is that screened is much better than unscreened cable unless you have the ability to remove all the added junk, then the opposite is true.
What do you think?

 

[K3RMIT]

A good post , in audio what we hear after change matters most. Sometimes measurement’s fail to equate to sound changes over all. if taiko says I’ll say it’s so with him. but we all may not agree to all in uniform agreement. I’m not a fan of a few audio grade devices
cables - usb - data - network switches and routers. Why cause most all no longer meet the specs of the usage needed. but like all we audio heads try most do effectively help us to tune our wanted sound . usb cables being the most useful.
please note my view of interconnects all types are very useful and needed. but if we used a given methodology we can sometimes predict the change we hear.
over all data transmission used in audio is way to complex to always predict, it’s why taiko commented honestly his findings.
just try to shutoff settings that resample the data stream. so no matter what some say digital has aspects to it that are just tough to predict on paper. but how it sounds is by far the only true measure in the end.