Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[shaned]

That will most likely be the same as with the Extreme. Choice of SPDIF, AES or dual AES.

There will now be a dealer in the Uk selling the Extreme and the other unit after Christmas so I am assuming I would go through him as to what I wanted on the unit and that would be relayed to yourselves when the unit is being built/modified ?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Roon just released version 1.7. The Extreme will update automatically, Roon remotes will not. So you will need to go to the Apple app store to update the Roon Remote software. If it does not show an update available, you are running too old a version of IOS and you will need to update it.

I have already noticed a few plusses:

- The interface speed is faster
- There is a definite seemingly positive audible change, as our CNC machines are running right now drawing around 25.000 watts, I will have to wait for thorough evaluation, but can already hear some differences.

 

[Taiko Audio]

There will now be a dealer in the Uk selling the Extreme and the other unit after Christmas so I am assuming I would go through him as to what I wanted on the unit and that would be relayed to yourselves when the unit is being built/modified ?

Yes that is correct.

 

[shaned]

Yes that is correct.

Thanks again for the help

 

[Rhapsody]

Roon just released version 1.7. The Extreme will update automatically, Roon remotes will not. So you will need to go to the Apple app store to update the Roon Remote software. If it does not show an update available, you are running too old a version of IOS and you will need to update it.

I have already noticed a few plusses:

- The interface speed is faster
- There is a definite seemingly positive audible change, as our CNC machines are running right now drawing around 25.000 watts, I will have to wait for thorough evaluation, but can already hear some differences.

I agree 100%, my interface is literally the same as if I switched from a 10 year old computer to a new computer, it seems lighting fast, as fast as I would ever want it to be.

My early listening impression is a pretty significant uptick in sound quality.

Check out the new icons in the audio section in the settings of Roon!

 

[Taiko Audio]

It seems they also used the occasion to increase the lifetime subscription fee from USD 499 to USD 699.

 

[Taiko Audio]

A writeup on Audiophilestyle:

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/roon-17-with-valence-is-released-r857/

 

[kswanson27]

A writeup on Audiophilestyle:

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/roon-17-with-valence-is-released-r857/

After updating to 1.7 I did some listening and everything seemed quite bright. Anyone else notice this? Or did I just have one of those listening sessions when the music doesn't sound as good as it usually does?
Great write up Emile.

 

[Rhapsody]

After updating to 1.7 I did some listening and everything seemed quite bright. Anyone else notice this? Or did I just have one of those listening sessions when the music doesn't sound as good as it usually does?
Great write up Emile.

Not bright at my place, sounds GREAT and definitely an uptick in SQ.

 

[Kris]

Roon just released version 1.7. The Extreme will update automatically, Roon remotes will not. So you will need to go to the Apple app store to update the Roon Remote software. If it does not show an update available, you are running too old a version of IOS and you will need to update it.

I have already noticed a few plusses:

- The interface speed is faster
- There is a definite seemingly positive audible change, as our CNC machines are running right now drawing around 25.000 watts, I will have to wait for thorough evaluation, but can already hear some differences.

Great news.
it looks that all new Extreme builds will get 1.7 version to start with .
is the jplay classic as an playing engine in Extreme also updating form time to time automatic ?

 

[Kris]

On the subject of networking with the Extreme:

I'm taking a few shortcuts here and am simplifying a few things in an attempt to keep it somewhat readable.

Your network setup does influence sound, every component connected to it has an effect, even your mobile phone using your wi-fi in a way totally unrelated to streaming introduces activity on all network ports and cables. This includes browsing your favourite What's Best Forum. There is a way to reduce this with smart switches/routers, or by using VLANs to segment your network, but this is advanced networking, not typically used in domestic situations.

All network activity causes noise, every data packet travelling your domestic network introduces electrical activity travelling your entire network which is just 1 "subnet".

This also means your music sever will "see" all data packets travelling your network, it will "investigate" every packet to check if it contains data adressed to it.

A domestic switch will simply replicate all data on it's input to all it's outputs, a smart switch provides you with a degree of control over this, so you can segment your network, reducing network traffic on specific links. Again this is advanced networking, none of the "audiophile" switches support this. Now before you think "gotta have", smart switches apply processing to the data stream, investigate certain parts of all data packets passing through, use more power, and have a noise signature. So there are pluses and minuses to using this in the first place. Network utilisation and the amount of active devices in your network are going to be determining factors if this can net out positive or not.

100Mbit networking uses 2 differential data pairs, 1Gbit networking uses 4. Data is transported as a modulated voltage over these lines. Modulating voltage introduces certain types of noise. In a switch the ports are galvanically decoupled by means of a differential transformer of which the center tap is connected to ground, usually through a simple filter network. One of the functions of this is to break "ground current paths".

Moving to fiber, we have optical links, SFP modules convert electrical signals to light pulses and vice versa. So arguable there is no real benefit to reducing network activity induced noise, in fact there is additional activity inside your appliances from this conversion process. A SFP module can easily consume 1 to 1.5 watts of power, which does not seem like much, but at this level, it is a lot. On the plus side there is no path for ground currents or electrical noise, whatever the source, travelling your fiber links. There are many types and makes of SFP modules, obvious differences can be found in power consumption efficiency, robustness, error correction, quality of optical receivers/transceivers etc. SFP+ (10G) modules can apply a higher degree of error correction, some even have built in "reclocking or jitter reduction" and yes this draws more power, so positives and negatives. Industrial versions are built to operate in harsh environments, like abnormal temperatures, heavy vibration environments, or in strong RFI/EMI polluted areas. What you can get buying industrial grade is better component quality and tolerance, higher selection grades, more robust PCB mounting and/or layout, better error correction algorithms, better filtering and most of the time lower power consumption. The downside is hefty price tags. I do have a few here.

Your internet router performs quite a bit of processing, it almost always performs something called NAT (Network Address Translation) meaning it forwards traffic from the internet to a different Ip range which you use inside your home. There is both a security and a functional aspect to it as without it each of your devices would require an unique IP address on the whole world wide web, and there is a limit to addresses available, that is why we are for example moving from the IPv4 protocol to IPv6 which has a vastly higher number of IP addresses available. A security aspect is your device cannot directly be accessed from any other device in the world. The router usually also provides DHCP services (assigns an unique address to each device on your local network), can provide DNS caching and often runs firewall software. It also often provides Wi-Fi services. It can be quite a busy device.

By now it must be clear that this is a very complex system with a lot of variables in play. Every network is likely to be unique. Different routers, different switches, different devices using it, different traffic patterns, it is unlikely that there are 2 exact identically performing network setups anywhere in the world at any given time.

Now how does all of this influence playback quality of the Extreme? Well it does, no way around it. So what we have done is running a whole lot of different network setups and combinations to identify the largest disturbances to sound quality. You can take measures to minimize their influence and get repeatable results up to a degree.

The copper network port of the Extreme will provide you with good and repeatable sound quality in virtually all environments. It will sound largely similar in all environments, even in the presence of heavy RFI/EMI pollution.

The fiber network port of the Extreme provides a somewhat different perspective, it will not very significantly impact the overall sound quality or voicing. The plus side is a certain degree of "isolation" (there is really more to it then that but it's to complicated to elaborate on that, the terminology suffices for its purpose). The down side is additional processing and a slightly higher power consumption.
It tends to net out positive with for example blacker backgrounds, improved clarity and more focus without impacting voicing. The downside of the increased focus is "sharper edges" to images, and some SFP modules can introduce a degree of mechanical quality to the sound, the reclocking SFP+ modules being about the worst at that.

So we have recommendations we make, based on repeatable results in different environments, the recommended SFP modules and FMC are based on that. There are combinations which give an impression of higher resolution but it's important to note increased noise is often perceived as increased resolution. The fatiguing aspect of this usually goes unnoticed as comparative listening sessions are often of short duration with a few test tracks people skip through quickly to remember enough detail to make a meaningful A/B comparison. It is rarely evaluated long term, being over weeks, listening in different moods/mindsets, at different levels of physical or mental fatigue, at different times of the day with varying levels of power grid pollution, or how do you perceive the difference in the first 30 minutes, and then after a few hours of continuous listening. There are again a lot of variations to evaluating.

Therefor our recommendation is to just use copper networking initially, let the Extreme burn in / settle in your environment, so far it has performed to full satisfaction by everybody who has bought one using it this way. Apply basic voicing measures as you would do with any appliance, like powercords, usb cables, footers etc, to adjust it to your taste. Then, if you feel so inclined turn to tweaking your network environment. And don't take anything for granted there, as your results are not guaranteed to mirror others.

It is relatively risk free to jump straight to using fiber, when used with the components we have tested long term, in various environments, but it is really optional. It is a relatively minor investment with value for money gains though. The downside is it has a "manual", if you power cycle the server you sometimes have to power cycle the FMC too, or pull the copper network cable from it, so it generates a link fault resetting the interface. But that is really quite a minor issue.

M12 is an Industrial version of UTP/copper networking, so overall at a higher level of performance, it is the best I've heard so far, it's also VERY expensive. It connects to the copper network port of the Extreme. If money is no object, the telegartner gold is likely to perform best, but I have not auditioned that specific model personally.

Now keep in mind network tweaking, and audiophile networking products are relatively new, surely there are gains to be made there. But do be aware of all aspects of performance. The Ether regen looks nicely done, I have one on order, initial feedback is promising and it's not outrageously priced. The downside is it runs at 100Mbit, meaning file copying can be slow. For bulk copying you'd always have the option to temporary replace it with a 1Gb switch though. I do look forward to testing it.

This is fantastic article and very educational.
I wish Emile has more time to educate us more about how the things work in swiches , cables and in Extreme !

 

[microstrip]

I agree 100%, my interface is literally the same as if I switched from a 10 year old computer to a new computer, it seems lighting fast, as fast as I would ever want it to be.

My early listening impression is a pretty significant uptick in sound quality.

Check out the new icons in the audio section in the settings of Roon!

Just installed the upgrades - after starting the upgrade process of Roon Remote on the Ipad, everything was automatically carried, just had to login in Qobuz again.

Roon operation is now really much faster, although I was terrified to learn about Valence in an email from Roon :

" Valence is a system built on a massive new cloud database, which uses machine learning algorithms – designed with our passion for music – to model the many dimensions of relatedness more deeply than ever before. And because you use Roon to explore, collect, and listen to the music you love, Valence understands you like no other.

The secret ingredient is the Roon community; Valence learns from the musical tastes of over 100,000 expert listeners who use Roon.

The result is the ultimate music expert, which presents the world of music through a lens personalized just for you. " (end of quote)


Be careful, big brother is watching and you telling you what to listen ...

 

[dminches]

After the upgrade it took about 6 hours for my data base to be re-built. However, I didn’t have any issues listening to music while it was in process.

 

[Taiko Audio]

After the upgrade it took about 6 hours for my data base to be re-built. However, I didn’t have any issues listening to music while it was in process.

Wow, what kind of system is that?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Be careful, big brother is watching and you telling you what to listen ...

You can probably disable that, I will look into it. The functionality is nice though.

 

[dminches]

Wow, what kind of system is that?

It is a custom built Xeon-based server using a Supermicro motherboard. The re-build time is likely due to the fact that I have 10 TB on a NAS as opposed to on a local hard drive.

 

[dminches]

Ah yes that would explain, that is around 25 to 50 times slower then on local optane.

For sure. On a local drive it would take no time.

My build is obviously not close to your builds but it is very simple and sounds better than any Aurender that I have owned, including the W20.

I did learn that Apacer ECC wide temperature ram sounds better than anything else I have tried.

 

[Kris]

You can probably disable that, I will look into it. The functionality is nice though.

The most important is going to be what you think about the SQ of the new version?

 

[Taiko Audio]

For sure. On a local drive it would take no time.

I deleted that post as the database itself should still be located on your local system drive. I don’t know exactly what Roon is doing. It was almost instant on my system.

 

[microstrip]

I deleted that post as the database itself should still be located on your local system drive. I don’t know exactly what Roon is doing. It was almost instant on my system.

A few minutes in mine - all the music is in the Extreme PCIe memory.