System "SOUL"?

[Johnny Vinyl]

This thread was started in response to Ceasar's
System Builders, How Does Your System get a SOUL?


I'm not one to stir up controversy or to delve into subject matters at great length. I usually just make a post or two and digest the information within the thread, but the issue of a system having "soul" , and or how to attain it, is such bunk IMO that I had to create a new thread.

While systems such as Steve's, Jack's and others are a thousand times better than mine, they do not and cannot provide "soul" anymore than my system can. "Soul" is brought into the equation by 2 things and 2 things only. They are:

Media and Listener. Without it all gear is just a stack of metal....

When I listen to a great recording and am completely relaxed, that recording has the ability to transcend me into another world. It's that combination that provides the soul. And while more expensive gear may do a better job of bringing that presentation to my ears, a lesser system is no less soulful.

Soul comes from inside......

 

[Vincent Kars]

Soul comes from inside......

Playing Otis Redding might help too

 

[JackD201]

Soul does come from inside my friend. It is inside the music and inside us.

Trecking into hyper performance land is not for the faint of heart. The more transparent the gear gets, the quieter the rooms get, the louder the systems can play, there are just so many more things that can be heard: The good, the bad and the ugly.

It's a pretty common thing to read about how we take months to get things right. It took me close to a year to get things where I wanted it, then it took me about 5 months after the speaker field upgrade. The immediate expectation is that after the upgrade I should have had instant gratification. Sadly this is hardly ever the case. I think the gist of caesar's post is that you can't expect great results just by strapping together good gear and I agree with him. If one doesn't have the patience and will to get the individual elements working together.........it can be a soul sucking experience. I've seen a lot of people burn out of the hobby expecting big dollars to automatically translate to good sound. I've seen many, many more people enjoy the hobby by simply being in less obsessive frames of mind. The beauty of this hobby is that you can choose to be anywhere in between. The ugly part is if you think you should be where you aren't happiest.

The soul is always there, sometimes we just lose sight of it.

 

[mep]

I think this subject is much deeper than hurt feelings caused by thinking there may be a hefty price tag associated with obtaining “soul” in your system. This is one of those topics that either people “get it” or they don’t. Even though I teased Caesar when he first brought this up, I think I understood his point.

Money and lots of it thrown at buying a very expensive system is no guarantee that it will have “soul.” And really, the use of the word “soul” is just an adjective to describe a system that is capable of sounding real vice an electrical/mechanical sound and can convey the drama and emotion that the artist(s) intended when they made the recording.

And yes, I think a system can choke the drama and emotion of recordings in numerous different ways. Poor dynamic range for instance. Poor signal to noise ratio for another. Inadequate power for the speakers used or poorly designed speakers regardless of price is another buzz/soul kill. The list goes on…

 

[Keith_W]

Don't you think this topic deserves a rest, already?

 

[mep]

Don't you think this topic deserves a rest, already?

Should we put the soul to rest? I think it may be a restless soul.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Don't you think this topic deserves a rest, already?

That's fine with me. I just wanted to make my point.

 

[Robh3606]

When I listen to a great recording and am completely relaxed, that recording has the ability to transcend me into another world. It's that combination that provides the soul. And while more expensive gear may do a better job of bringing that presentation to my ears, a lesser system is no less soulful.

It's state of mind. I can get that walking on the beach with my I-Pod, in my car and obviously at home. The most important thing being relaxed and not letting life or expectations get in the way.

Rob

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

When Ceasar first launched the topic, I assumed he meant "soul" as a euphamism for a system that sounds good to you. I think I was right about that. I also assumed that everybody would understand that; that no one would actually think they could buy "soul," or that the soul of beautiful music could be purged by anything less than a system making such horrible noise as to render music unlistenable.

I assumed too much.

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

Don't you think this topic deserves a rest, already?

Ditto

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

When Ceasar first launched the topic, I assumed he meant "soul" as a euphamism for a system that sounds good to you. I think I was right about that. I also assumed that everybody would understand that; that no one would actually think they could buy "soul," or that the soul of beautiful music could be purged by anything less than a system making such horrible noise as to render music unlistenable.

I assumed too much.

Tim

Maybe Ceasar did mean it as a euphamism, but the resultant replies didn't exactly pick up on that either, going on about how system X or speaker X, or another mechanical factor was somehow in play to create "soul" , and that I don't buy.

 

[mep]

Tim-I think you missed Caesar's boat and hopped on a train instead. There is a perverse inverse relationship with regards to cost and sound quality when it comes to the gear we use to listen to music with. The better your system gets, the more shortcomings it exposes in other parts of the musical chain. Things that you didn’t even know were there and didn’t affect you good or bad can suddenly become exposed for all to hear with more resolving gear.

Cheap gear (even a table radio for instance) comes with low expectations, it glosses over tons of information, and mainly serves up sins of omission and it can sound very ‘pleasant’ as a result. You could make a case that in order to enjoy music more, you should spend less money and set your expectations much lower.

Does that mean that even a cheap table radio playing mono FM can’t reach out and touch you? Hell no. I find something intimate about the sound of a table radio and the way it can communicate music to you in a fundamental way compared to listening over a big rig that has high aspirations for high-fidelity. My point is that the more expensive the system, the higher the expectations become, and the more the warts of the recording process, the recording medium, and the studio tricks become exposed. Not to mention the weaknesses of the system itself.

The bottom line is that recordings aren’t perfect be they digital or analog. Our systems aren’t perfect no matter how much we spend on them. Our recording and playback process simply can’t and doesn’t sound indistinguishable from live at the present state of the art. We are trying to achieve the currently unachievable.

The best sounding high-end systems create a damn good illusion that thrills us. Putting together a system that will operate at a consistently high level of illusion making doesn’t happen by accident. You can refer to this ability of a system to thrill you with the illusions it conjures up as ‘magic,’ ‘soul,’ or any other sonic descriptor you wish to use. Some systems have it, some don’t. And I think that may have just been Caesar’s point.

 

[Saturntube]

Put the topic to rest?

I think we are barely scratching the surface of the topic, and really, when you think about it, why else would we have "High End" gear and talk about it on the "Whats Best" forum if we are going to stick with ipods and Cliff Richards like wet eyed cheerleaders!
But going further I really think this is what we are looking when we spend 4 hours in the dark listenign to music, why would we spend thousands of dollars and occupy a whole room of the house if there was no soul involved? There are levels of involvement and I alwasy think of High End as a road where you enjoy every step of the way, the time I exchanged my NAD cd player for a CAL Icon player I was ecstatic! I listened to music for hours and loved every second of it! Today I laugh about the system I used to have but remember fondly all the music I enjoyed on it, and then enjoyed again on the newer better gear!

Now there are Audiophiles and there are Music lovers, I dont think lesser of any of them, it is just different hobbies (I would say an audiophile has to have at least some music lover inside though). I have a firend who loves music and writes about it and has inteviewed every rockstar you can think about, and has a Sony system!

I think we are still missign a lot of tehcnical essays about how to achieve Soul of a system!

 

[Steve Williams]

Saturn

Often times when we change out gear what we is hear is not always better but often something different

 

[RogerD]

Saturn

Often times when we change out gear what we is hear is not always better but often something different

+1

 

[JackD201]

I think we have to face the fact that in the here and now what we are all doing is balancing compromises. Whether the goal is "fidelity" or "pleasurability" (is there such a word?) in the end the best we can get is "good enough" and THAT is the subjective part.

When the word "Soul" is used it surely means different things to all of us. I'm certain none of us here take it literally. To me it brings up the aspect of harmonic content and its conveyance first and foremost. One can get a boat load of this for very little money. One can also get a microscope slide's worth for the same money. The inevitable question is, is it faithfully reproduced or is it added?

Funny thing is, if on one end we accept no system is perfect and on the other end distortion spectra are related to the input signals, my thinking is both answers are likely wrong. It is more a question of how much or how little harmonic content is emphasized in any given configuration and acoustic setting.

 

[Saturntube]

I agree the definition of "Soul" in reproduced music may vary to the listeners mileage.

To me a system with soul is when the reproduction of music is so real, it moves you1

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I agree the definition of "Soul" in reproduced music may vary to the listeners mileage.

To me a system with soul is when the reproduction of music is so real, it moves you1

My point exactly! And that can be achieved at all levels.

 

[Steve Williams]

To me a system with soul is when the reproduction of music is so real, it moves you1

Right on

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The best sounding high-end systems create a damn good illusion that thrills us. Putting together a system that will operate at a consistently high level of illusion making doesn’t happen by accident. You can refer to this ability of a system to thrill you with the illusions it conjures up as ‘magic,’ ‘soul,’ or any other sonic descriptor you wish to use. Some systems have it, some don’t. And I think that may have just been Caesar’s point.

Yep. But what your system has, that you think is its magic, and what Caesar's systems has that he thinks of as its soul, may very well be two different things. In fact, they are probably two different things. And "Some systems have it, some don't," while both earnest and accurate, is pretty pointless if we can't agree on what "it" is.

Tim