The Noob Linearity factor

[bonzo75]

Going with the flow (some of you might not relate), I am introducing a new provocative hifi attribute. It is called The Noob Linearity.

When we are noobs, and start with a basic system without much research (think back to your early audiophile days, even though for some people that might be 50 years), we find that if we jump up a grade, we get more weight and size of stage and scale. We get excited, and that becomes our early upgrade. Other examples are we find cheap SS sharp and hard, and find that putting any valve in gives us some soul. Our first experience with subs that adds weight.

For me, the Noob Linearity is a phenomenon where the person even after 20 years or more of experience then just thinks a linear progression on the initial upgrade impression fronts will add more. More price, more size, more subwoofers. 45s instead of 33s, not appreciating other nuances might exist in mastering. More powerful SS stereo with more expensive valve preamp! In short, there is no real change from the Noob jump. It is just assuming linear progression on the lines of the initial upgrade impressions will get us more. The audition music, CDs and records stays round about the same through this journey and style of audition never really changes. Thinking there is a difference between 4 feet, 5 feet, and 7 feet of speakers in getting us closer to the scale of a real orchestra, or adding 6 subs instead of two will give us more realistic weight. Thinking our next upgrade, because of the “up” in the word, has to be more financial outlay on similar lines to get you more of the same thing. Because your last digital jump was more organic, obviously spending more on digital will get you analog. d-oh

While you might disagree with some of the examples, the NL ™ point is more about the fact that of your assumptions, how many come from an early stage of exposure curve and which come from the latter stage, and were there significant changes in strategy over the curve. If all you did was upgrade the same speaker (style of speaker) throwing more money and just go to bigger sized electronics and sources over the years, you are at an early stage.

in other words, it is not be about number or size of upgrades but also no. of system strategic/philosophic changes

 

[Djcxxx]

Really was not like that in the mid to late 1970s. There wasn’t that much “high end”. In ‘79 I had been reading HP’s TAS in college for years. I put every cent I had together for an ARC D52B and SP6B, Speakers were MG 1s. TT went from a Phillips 312 to a Thorens with an Infinity black widow. Cartridge was a Sonus. I had that same equipment for 15 years. in SS there was not a lot I remember other than Threshold. DQ10s, Quads, AR, Rogers comes to mind in speakers. Acoustats, Apogees were more early ‘80s. LP was the only “high end” media in the mid to late ‘70s. People who bought a Porsche 911 or Lotus Twin Cam Europa were also looking for different qualities than today.

 

[JackD201]

Kedar,

I've always wondered why you think you know what goes on in the heads of other people. Is this the impression you get from the people who have hosted you?

 

[Lagonda]

Is the Noob Linearity factor at play when you buy rarer and rarer vintage horn drivers or more expensive tube amps utilising similar vintage tubes ?

 

[bonzo75]

Is the Noob Linearity factor at play when you buy rarer and rarer vintage horn drivers or more expensive tube amps utilising similar vintage tubes ?

Maybe the NL factor stops you from picking out the nuance. I am not recommending more expensive tube amps with rarer and rarer tubes. If someone wants to buy the Kondo, good for them, they can get Kagura with rare nos tubes.

I recommend low priced amps as well, like a GM70 where tube cost is very low.

Regarding rarer and rarer drivers, altec drivers with pair of midrange and 2 (two) pair of woofers all in cost will by 10 – 15k depending on how you source. Use TAD 4003 the cost of the speaker will go up to 20k to build. Maybe 25. No margin.

The NL factor makes you not appreciate the ratio of driver cost to commercial speaker cost.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

while i respect that you have well meaning intentions about this line of discussion, i think it's mostly disrespectful as a topic, and blatantly elitist. don't like where this might end up going.

not that stuff like this kind of labeling does not enter plenty of threads, but this is a bit 'in your face'. it does not pass the smell test. it will alienate a certain part of our community.

i only speak for myself. maybe i'm wrong.

 

[bonzo75]

while i respect that you have well meaning intentions about this line of discussion, i think it's mostly disrespectful as a topic, and blatantly elitist. don't like where this might end up going.

not that stuff like this kind of labeling does not enter plenty of threads, but this is a bit 'in your face'. it does not pass the smell test. it will alienate a certain part of our community.

i only speak for myself. maybe i'm wrong.

how is it not elitist when people throw the opposite at us in other threads? Using price, size of speaker, or statements like of course component A has to be better than B given the price? And pretend because they can hear certain irrelevant silly hifi attributes their system is better?

 

[Lagonda]

Maybe the NL factor stops you from picking out the nuance. I am not recommending more expensive tube amps with rarer and rarer tubes. If someone wants to buy the Kondo, good for them, they can get Kagura with rare nos tubes.

I recommend low priced amps as well, like a GM70 where tube cost is very low.

Regarding rarer and rarer drivers, altec drivers with pair of midrange and 2 (two) pair of woofers all in cost will by 10 – 15k depending on how you source. Use TAD 4003 the cost of the speaker will go up to 20k to build. Maybe 25. No margin.

The NL factor makes you not appreciate the ratio of driver cost to commercial speaker cost.

Let’s not forget the intricacies of woodworking and the cost of marketing in those high dollar offerings. It is really important which little Japanese, German, or Russian man has wound the transformers in those pricey amps and preamps, or cut the wood in the overpriced platter-weight

 

[JackD201]

how is it not elitist when people throw the opposite at us in other threads? Using price, size of speaker, or statements like of course component A has to be better than B given the price? And pretend because they can hear certain irrelevant silly hifi attributes their system is better?

Ah there it is. Somebody hurt your feelings.

who are “us” exactly? Is this an official group? Does it require some sort of initiation?

 

[Carlos269]

how is it not elitist when people throw the opposite at us in other threads? Using price, size of speaker, or statements like of course component A has to be better than B given the price? And pretend because they can hear certain irrelevant silly hifi attributes their system is better?

I think that Mike is just scared to hear the reality that 1) money doesn’t buy you top quality sound, you need more than money……you need knowledge or access to someone with knowledge. 2) the more costly systems are often not the best sounding.

If you think that you can buy your way to the top, you will learn that you are very mistaken. Buying the latest and greatest, is often a downgrade.

You are either in this hobby for “show” or you are into it with a passion. If passion of the music is your motivation then you can achieve great heights. If vanity, pride of ownership, and the equipment is your motivation then you will end up like……….always on the chase for the next “best” thing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

how is it not elitist when people throw the opposite at us in other threads? Using price, size of speaker, or statements like of course component A has to be better than B given the price? And pretend because they can hear certain irrelevant silly hifi attributes their system is better?

i think growth of beginners as an audiophile/music lover is not helped by calling them names. you can rationalize it any way you want, but that is what you are doing.

 

[bonzo75]

i think growth of beginners as an audiophile/music lover is not helped by calling them names. you can rationalize it any way you want, but that is what you are doing.

No. You missed it. I called so called experienced audiophiles who after 20 years or more have not moved on, because they stick to the concept they learned as beginners and draw a linear line from there. Hence noob linearity

 

[Zuman]

I think there is likely some truth in the concept for many people, but I don't think it often takes too much to break the cycle. When I first heard (and saw!) a pair of Martin Logan CLS speakers in the 80s I had to have them and then began the process of trying to build everything around them. That lasted a bit too long, and then I looked for the "next CLS," and so on. But eventually I realized that other things matter, too.

 

[Carlos269]

No. You missed it. I called so called experienced audiophiles who after 20 years have not moved on, as beginners, because they stick to the concept they learned as beginners and draw a linear line from there

Wow, well said. Some people, will spare you the names, have not evolved. Look up some of the threads from 20 plus years ago on Audiogon and they will read like their posts from today. Always chasing the carrot dangled in front of them. Instead of evolving and learning from knowledge. Don’t believe me, look at the old posts in those old threads and you will see that……..nothing has changed.

 

[JackD201]

Name names Ked.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

No. You missed it. I called so called experienced audiophiles who after 20 years have not moved on, as beginners, because they stick to the concept they learned as beginners and draw a linear line from there

those things can only really happen organically. show them the way, don't shame them into following you.

 

[SuperDave]

I rarely engage in these threads, in the end, I can't back-up any justification for my purchases other than I liked the sound. I agree that experience and exposure can guide decisions but what's wrong with someone going bigger and better for the sound "they" like? What qualifies anyone here to definitively say what the right sound is and other choices are foolish?

Dave

 

[Lagonda]

I think there is likely some truth in the concept for many people, but I don't think it often takes too much to break the cycle. When I first heard (and saw!) a pair of Martin Logan CLS speakers in the 80s I had to have them and then began the process of trying to build everything around them. That lasted a bit too long, and then I looked for the "next CLS," and so on. But eventually I realized that other things matter, too.

Hm that sounds very familiar, and I ended up with the biggest CLS I could find !

 

[bonzo75]

I rarely engage in these threads, in the end, I can't back-up any justification for my purchases other than I liked the sound. I agree that experience and exposure can guide decisions but what's wrong with someone going bigger and better for the sound "they" like? What qualifies anyone here to definitively say what the right sound is and other choices are foolish?

Dave

Just like it doesn’t qualify them to say their sound is good because they went bigger

On the other hand, this is a forum and regular posters have opinions they state often strongly

 

[SuperDave]

Just like it doesn’t qualify them to say their sound is good because they went bigger

On the other hand, this is a forum and regular posters have opinions they state often strongly

Are they saying they have good sound or improved sound based on their purchases. If I upgrade my speakers to the Lyra, I will get better sound. I can say this because I like the way they sound and to me its an upgrade. How is this foolish if I spent my money and I'm happy? I would rather be called blissfully ignorant, I have never heard a proper horn setup, maybe I'm missing out but I still think my sound is good and can always be improved.