Sublime Sound

[bonzo75]

Al and Ian's report does not surprise me. I have been on about Vdh Strad since 2017. However, I have only heard it sound good with valve kit - Silbatone in the WE room at Munich each year with Schroeder and Schick arms, the Vox Palladian Kondo one year with Kuzma 4p. I heard it once with Magico Q7 mk2, where it sounded much better through Allnic 5000 and Aesthetix IO Eclipse than through the Dartzeel mk1. I heard it once in Audioquattr's room with Pass, where it did not sound as good as his other carts, but since then he has optimized more his set up and got the Mayer phono too. So, he is best placed to comment on changes. In Tang's system, it sounded superlative, like in Munich. In Munich, the analog on vintage restores + VDH has been so superior to all other rooms in the last few years - and yes, you always have dCS and sometime tape to compare in the same room

However, even there in that report I commented, that if you have the VDH strad, you need two carts - as it is not a complete cart for all music. It is spectacular for some. It has amazing nuance, dynamics, energy, and realism, that works for plucks of strings, violin, inner details as well as the leading strike of piano, and on vocals due to better inflections. It can slam on the tympani, but can show a leanness in midbass. In the Magico Q7 mk2 system, the Atlas sounded more balanced and hence better, but the VDH was more magical in some areas. In Tang's system, if I was forced to do only one cart, I would take the Opus for completeness due to balance, but if I could have two, I would take the VDH way before the Opus as it did some/many things so much better. Opus would then be relegated to back up cart and to fill in the blanks. Which is pretty much what Tang is doing.

You can see here, I was quite surprised when Mike reported it to be good on orchestral, as it is not balanced enough for full symphony, since it does spotlight some areas during tuttis. I did expect the slight leanness in midbass to be highlighted more in Mike's system than any other, and for him to move on, which is why I asked the below

Wow Mike if it can beat your GFS on orchestral that's quite amazing. So it fills up all the details in the mid and the Midbass?

However, it is still my favorite cart along with the red sparrow on a LT. Regarding the etched part, VDH does sound that way when not properly set up or possibly through SS gear. Also, the sample to sample variance of VDH is high, possibly the maximum.

Additionally. Tang disabled his Hoelscher (Cello) on VDH, else I would have posted that plus his Hoelscher on Opus that, as far as videos go, showcases the midbass difference well. But then on the Harpsichord VDH was so far superior the other carts were non-listenable. I wouldn't use VDH for amplified rock, either.

That said, VDH aside, I am not doubting what Al and Ian heard. I think when VDH sounds natural and good, they will accept that too. This is not rocket science. If they are hearing these issues, these are valid issues that can exist in a VDH system with Pass electronics. So it could sound like they said, the fact that Peter is not hearing etched and lean midbass while they are is confusing. As long as they are referring to the same auditioned music.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Al and Ian's report does not surprise me. I have been on about Vdh Strad since 2017. However, I have only heard it sound good with valve kit - Silbatone in the WE room at Munich each year with Schroeder and Schick arms, the Vox Palladian Kondo one year with Kuzma 4p. I heard it once with Magico Q7 mk2, where it sounded much better through Allnic 5000 and Aesthetix IO Eclipse than through the Dartzeel mk1. I heard it once in Audioquattr's room with Pass, where it did not sound as good as his other carts, but since then he has optimized more his set up and got the Mayer phono too. So, he is best placed to comment on changes. In Tang's system, it sounded superlative, like in Munich. In Munich, the analog on vintage restores + VDH has been so superior to all other rooms in the last few years - and yes, you always have dCS and sometime tape to compare in the same room

However, even there in that report I commented, that if you have the VDH strad, you need two carts - as it is not a complete cart for all music. It is spectacular for some. It has amazing nuance, dynamics, energy, and realism, that works for plucks of strings, violin, inner details as well as the leading strike of piano, and on vocals due to better inflections. It can slam on the tympani, but can show a leanness in midbass. In the Magico Q7 mk2 system, the Atlas sounded more balanced and hence better, but the VDH was more magical in some areas. In Tang's system, if I was forced to do only one cart, I would take the Opus for completeness due to balance, but if I could have two, I would take the VDH way before the Opus as it did some/many things so much better. Opus would then be relegated to back up cart and to fill in the blanks. Which is pretty much what Tang is doing.

You can see here, I was quite surprised when Mike reported it to be good on orchestral, as it is not balanced enough for full symphony, since it does spotlight some areas during tuttis. I did expect the slight leanness in midbass to be highlighted more in Mike's system than any other, and for him to move on, which is why I asked the below



However, it is still my favorite cart along with the red sparrow on a LT. Regarding the etched part, VDH does sound that way when not properly set up or possibly through SS gear. Also, the sample to sample variance of VDH is high, possibly the maximum.

Additionally. Tang disabled his Hoelscher (Cello) on VDH, else I would have posted that plus his Hoelscher on Opus that, as far as videos go, showcases the midbass difference well. But then on the Harpsichord VDH was so far superior the other carts were non-listenable. I wouldn't use VDH for amplified rock, either.

That said, VDH aside, I am not doubting what Al and Ian heard. I think when VDH sounds natural and good, they will accept that too. This is not rocket science. If they are hearing these issues, these are valid issues that can exist in a VDH system with Pass electronics. So it could sound like they said, the fact that Peter is not hearing etched and lean midbass while they are is confusing. As long as they are referring to the same auditioned music.

Ked - remember the VDH MS was vastly worse than the Sparrow at mine but we weren’t sure if that was a sample issue. Sounded super thin and etched with no mid bass and very hifi. I can only assume it was a duff one.

 

[bonzo75]

Ked - remember the VDH MS was vastly worse than the Sparrow at mine but we weren’t sure if that was a sample issue. Sounded super thin and etched with no mid bass and very hifi. I can only assume it was a duff one.

I am quite sure that was unlike any VDH I have heard. Couldn't listen on that

 

[PeterA]

I appreciate the differences between the two cartridges.

 

[Tango]

[/QUOTE]

However, even there in that report I commented, that if you have the VDH strad, you need two carts - as it is not a complete cart for all music. It is spectacular for some. It has amazing nuance, dynamics, energy, and realism, that works for plucks of strings, violin, inner details as well as the leading strike of piano, and on vocals due to better inflections. It can slam on the tympani, but can show a leanness in midbass. In the Magico Q7 mk2 system, the Atlas sounded more balanced and hence better, but the VDH was more magical in some areas. In Tang's system, if I was forced to do only one cart, I would take the Opus for completeness due to balance, but if I could have two, I would take the VDH way before the Opus as it did some/many things so much better. Opus would then be relegated to back up cart and to fill in the blanks. Which is pretty much what Tang is doing.

If this is your analysis of how I hear and why I Keep going between the Opus1 and MS, it is spot on.

 

[ddk]

However, even there in that report I commented, that if you have the VDH strad, you need two carts - as it is not a complete cart for all music.

vdH is my favorite and I really liked the Opus 1 at Tang's but two carts aren't enough either!
david

 

[Tango]

vdH is my favorite and I really liked the Opus 1 at Tang's but two carts aren't enough either!
david

Gluttonous.

 

[Lagonda]

Gluttonous.

Says the man with 4 TT’s, 8 arms and 20 cartridges

 

[bazelio]

The Master Signature is going to be finicky in terms of system matching. It's a high impedance cartridge (I believe @mountainjoe was told 38 ohms). With a SUT that isn't designed to behave well with the high impedance, bass rolloff will be severe. So, it's probably pretty easy to plop it in to a particular chain, and say "where's da bass?!".

Hopefully Peter doesn't mind this being addressed in his thread. But one reason I avoided MSS for as long as I did was that I simply didn't care to have a single purpose SUT on hand especially for this cartridge. Peter won't have this issue, as he is using a Pass solid state phono stage. But I require a SUT with my Emia LR phono stage. The Grand Cru has an advantage (electrically) in that it is a medium impedance cart, with the same magnet as the standard MSS, but fewer windings. (The Grand Cru is not shown in the frequency response plots below.)

Below shows a simple simulation using 4 different 1:10 SUTs and a 38Ohm Master Sig. I'm assuming 10uH cart inductance, which might be a bit off as I don't know the precise value. But it's not going to make a significant difference to add 10's of uH as the case may be. The sim results still hold. Anyhow the SUTs are typical XL, L, M, H SUTs. From bottom to top, respectively. Take an example of (let's say) a low impedance Lundahl SUT and the expected results are reflected in the bottom-most curves below with the most bass rolloff. It could be any improperly match SUT, Jensen, etc. The flattest frequency response is shown with a SUT that is properly matched to the cart in the top-most curves.. The difference between a properly matched SUT and an improperly matched SUT is large.

I point this out because often times I suspect cart reviews are hindered by effects unbeknownst to the listener/reviewer. Certainly my experience with a MSS in a compatible system can differ substantially from someone else's experience in an incompatible system as the sim shows.

PS. I have also figured out the Red Sparrow inductance and plotted it in various scenarios (not shown here). It is far less finicky to system matching. FWIW.

 

[Tango]

Says the man with 4 TT’s, 8 arms and 20 cartridges

I am on diet now.

 

[tima]

In Tang's system, it sounded superlative, like in Munich. ... It can slam on the tympani, but can show a leanness in midbass.

Two questions:
Did you hear the Master Sig in Tang's system before or after he got the Lamm gear?
What frequency range or octaves count as mid-bass for you?

 

[bonzo75]

Two questions:
Did you hear the Master Sig in Tang's system before or after he got the Lamm gear?
What frequency range or octaves count as mid-bass for you?

Before the lamm gear, with the Ayon.

When I refer to Midbass I refer to weight range. Not related to vdh, that includes cello, baritone chest, lower ranges of brass and piano. Bottom range of the Midbass range would be slams, from tympani and drums.

I am not saying vdh has issues across all that range, but usually it's in weight, and cello. Tympani is fast and tight, but the weight is slightly less.

In terms is frequency range it would probably end around 80 Hz

 

[tima]

Hi Tim, MikeL thinks I ask the tough questions. These are good ones, and they are not so easy to answer. It has been a gradual and deliberate process, with a few significant moves that led to a revelation.

I touched on some of this in my report on the Pass Labs XP-32 preamp. Years ago when I really started getting into this hobby, I bought specific gear thinking it sounded good. I enjoyed playing my old records, buying new ones, and very incrementally improving the sound of my system through the occasional upgrade.

About eight years ago two things happened: Jim Smith came to voice my system to my room mainly by adjusting first my listening seat position (height and location) and then my speaker position. He demonstrated a very methodical process which resulted in a more engaging listening experience. From reading his book and then spending a weekend with him, I started thinking of music reproduction in his simpler terms: Tone, Dynamics, and Presence. Progress from here involved improving one or more of those attributes.

Around this same time, I visited an acquaintance in Vienna who subsequently became a good friend and audio mentor. He introduced me to a behind the scenes exploration of music making in one of the worlds greatest music venues, the Vienna State Opera. He suggested I listen to the energy created by the cello and various other instruments in the pit and to the voices on stage and how that energy expands through that hall. He taught me that there is no absolute sound. He taught me about the origins of sound and its essence. The sheer beauty of sound in that hall is amazing. Rehearsals in an empty hall heard from the edge of the pit to performances at night at the back of the hall in the Director's box. Sound during the day, music at night. I began to understand better grasp the distinction.

Then, about a year ago, I started to pay attention to ddk's ideas. I had always wanted to try a second tone arm and my questions to him about the SME 3012R led to many discussions and the further reading of his posts here on WBF. The concept of something even simpler than Tone, Dynamics and Presence became "Natural".

With the memories of years of listening to live music, friends' systems, and my own system, I began to realize that the reproduced audio I was hearing was pretty far removed from what I heard live, in Vienna, at the BSO, at small chamber settings, and at jazz clubs. With other hobbies, sailing in particular requiring more resources, I decided to try to change the sound of my system without spending much money. I talked more to David and sought out his advice.

I realized that the conventional way I had been doing things was not getting me closer to my goal of a more natural sound. David encouraged me to experiment by ditching some of my long held beliefs and to reassess everything with the very simple question: "Does it sound more or less natural?"

I started by removing things from the room and system: acoustic treatments, audiophile signal cables and power cords, isolation platforms. I then repositioned my speakers to face straight ahead. Each time I did something, I simply asked myself if it sounded more or less "natural".

That was the first basic move. It was not easy, it took time and a lot of experimentation, particularly with speaker position. I have found that with zero toe in, finding the right location in the room is considerably more challenging than when the speakers are toed in to meet a foot or two behind the listening seat. The interactions with the walls and resulting room reflections takes more fine tuning to sound right. This process took a long time and there were setbacks. Audio friends did not like the sound, but I continued in this new direction anyway.

With these changes the system sounded much more natural to me. I was reminded of what my mentor taught me in Vienna. My room was more energized, the music was more engaging and I was less conscience of the gear and system and room. This led to the second effort.

Once the room was energized and the music more alive, I wanted more of the clarity I heard from the BSO. This lead directly to the new preamp and signal cables. The vdH cartridges were actually the first hint of what was now possible in terms of clarity and natural sound.

That is a long history of the evolution of my system and my methodology, but it basically comes down to this: natural sound (ddk), energy (Vienna), and clarity (BSO). I think David would refer to it simply as "natural resolution".

The revelation came from hearing the results of my willingness to experiment with ddk's advice and to try something less conventional, even against the conventional wisdom. It was a kind of disruption or break from my long held audio beliefs. I now listen more to the whole rather than to the parts and have a clearer goal of where I want to end up.

Thanks for the account of your journey over the past eight years. I sense you are enjoying it and the process of discovery that has led you to where you are today. My general sense - correct me if incorrect - is you've oriented your goals for your system from the reference of live acoustic music. Your notes about your time in Vienna and with the Boston Symphony point to that.

The goal of Clarity is, I believe, a typical one for most audiophiles. The whole (now mildly annoying) language we've heard or used for years about 'veils dropping' or 'windows cleaned' references clarity, as does freedom from ambiguity. Of course it's desirable - who would choose obscurity or the unintelligent? It can be sought and had by removing stuff, such as overly compliant footers that yield blur or by a new preamp. I don't know if I regard Clarity as involved in Natural; will have to think on that more.

I very much relate to what you took from your Jim Smith interaction re Tone and Dynamics. I too hold those dear - they are necessary conditions of "natural". Sometimes I like to reference the musical score: it tells muscians what tones to play at what dynamic. What we hear is tone at a dynamic produced by the musicians following the score (whether written or in their heads.) The score also includes another instruction which is likewise one of the neccessary conditions of "natural" - at least in my defintion - and that is Timing. Timing is critical for both music making and for audio reproduction. Timing may be at the heart of presence. When you move your speakers around you're messing with timing.

Presence has some ambiguity as it is used in audiophilery. Some refer to a 'presence region' usually the upper mid-range, lower treble. The other usage is the one I prefer and which I think you're using. The score says nothing about presence. It is both a psycho-acoustic characteristic and a reality. It is, to me anyway, very real in the concert hall and most live venues.

Presence is the energy in the air that occurs when music is played and can sometimes be enhanced in virtue of a live audience who bring their own energies. It is 'sensed' or 'felt' more so than heard. Sometimes in big orchestral works you can see the energy in the form of the musicians making the music, the work as it were sometimes coupled with a sense of joy. In audio rooms presence is psycho-acoustic, a reaction on our part - in our mind - to what we hear. It also comes from our ability to locate sounds in space - back and side wall reflections, the 'harmonic cloud or shimmer' rising above a group of musicians playing - especially a full orchestra. The latter certainly is musical energy or a product of energy. So I, like maybe you, consider presence as a necessary condition of "natural".

I see "natural" as a shorthand way of referring to these characteristics as well as an expression of their synthesis - the listening to the whole. Take any one away and natural falls apart. While we each have our own perceptions and we each get to be the ultimate judge about what we hear and gauge whether it is natural or not, I don't think it is an entirely subjective notion in as much as we can point to it in the concert hall. Through and because of reproduction we won't achieve that same experience but "natural", for those of us who choose it, can be our guide.

 

[tima]

Before the lamm gear, with the Ayon.

When I refer to Midbass I refer to weight range. Not related to vdh, that includes cello, baritone chest, lower ranges of brass and piano. Bottom range of the Midbass range would be slams, from tympani and drums.

I am not saying vdh has issues across all that range, but usually it's in weight, and cello. Tympani is fast and tight, but the weight is slightly less.

In terms is frequency range it would probably end around 80 Hz

I think 80Hz is a reasonable line. You get the tail end of cellos french horns and the regular bassoon. Timps usually cut off just above that. About two-thirds of a bass (double bass) is above it.

If you get an opportunity, with the Master Sig and a Lamm phono, listen to opening bars of Mahler 2 with Bernstein and the NY Phil. The bass and cellos enter roughly in their mid to lower mid-bass.

 

[bonzo75]

I think 80Hz is a reasonable line. You get the tail end of cellos french horns and the regular bassoon. Timps usually cut off just above that. About two-thirds of a bass (double bass) is above it.

If you get an opportunity, with the Master Sig and a Lamm phono, listen to opening bars of Mahler 2 with Bernstein and the NY Phil. The bass and cellos enter roughly in their mid to lower mid-bass.

Did you move from the AR phono to the Lamm phono?

 

[Al M.]

Before the lamm gear, with the Ayon.

When I refer to Midbass I refer to weight range. Not related to vdh, that includes cello, baritone chest, lower ranges of brass and piano. Bottom range of the Midbass range would be slams, from tympani and drums.

I am not saying vdh has issues across all that range, but usually it's in weight, and cello. Tympani is fast and tight, but the weight is slightly less.

In terms is frequency range it would probably end around 80 Hz

Cello and low register on piano were strong on the vdH. That was not the problem. Low brass was also rather good.

Good to hear that, given your own experiences, you were not surprised by Ian's and my impressions of the vdH cartridge.

 

[Al M.]

That said, VDH aside, I am not doubting what Al and Ian heard. I think when VDH sounds natural and good, they will accept that too.

Absolutely. In fact, I hope that further experiments by Peter with the setup of the cartridge will yield a more agreeable, natural sound. It is clear from what I heard with the MSL cartridge that the evolution of his system generally goes in the right direction.

This is not rocket science. If they are hearing these issues, these are valid issues that can exist in a VDH system with Pass electronics. So it could sound like they said, the fact that Peter is not hearing etched and lean midbass while they are is confusing. As long as they are referring to the same auditioned music.

Again, this was not necessarily an issue of weight in the midbass, but the hifi-ish 'etching' was all over the frequency range. And the disagreement in this case about what sounds natural is confusing indeed.

I assume it may resolve itself over time.

 

[PeterA]

Cello and low register on piano were strong on the vdH. That was not the problem. Low brass was also rather good.

Good to hear that, given your own experiences, you were not surprised by Ian's and my impressions of the vdH cartridge.

Al, I agree. There were no relative weaknesses in those areas with the vdH/3012R, but it seems Kedar points to those areas as potential issues for the vdH. I don’t quite understand that.

Forgetting about the the vdH for a moment, what weaknesses did you hear with the MSL and how would you describe the sound of that MSL/V-12 combination relative to what you hear in you digital system on the same music?

 

[MadFloyd]

Al and Ian's report does not surprise me. I have been on about Vdh Strad since 2017. However, I have only heard it sound good with valve kit - Silbatone in the WE room at Munich each year with Schroeder and Schick arms, the Vox Palladian Kondo one year with Kuzma 4p. I heard it once with Magico Q7 mk2, where it sounded much better through Allnic 5000 and Aesthetix IO Eclipse than through the Dartzeel mk1. I heard it once in Audioquattr's room with Pass, where it did not sound as good as his other carts, but since then he has optimized more his set up and got the Mayer phono too. So, he is best placed to comment on changes. In Tang's system, it sounded superlative, like in Munich. In Munich, the analog on vintage restores + VDH has been so superior to all other rooms in the last few years - and yes, you always have dCS and sometime tape to compare in the same room

However, even there in that report I commented, that if you have the VDH strad, you need two carts - as it is not a complete cart for all music. It is spectacular for some. It has amazing nuance, dynamics, energy, and realism, that works for plucks of strings, violin, inner details as well as the leading strike of piano, and on vocals due to better inflections. It can slam on the tympani, but can show a leanness in midbass. In the Magico Q7 mk2 system, the Atlas sounded more balanced and hence better, but the VDH was more magical in some areas. In Tang's system, if I was forced to do only one cart, I would take the Opus for completeness due to balance, but if I could have two, I would take the VDH way before the Opus as it did some/many things so much better. Opus would then be relegated to back up cart and to fill in the blanks. Which is pretty much what Tang is doing.

You can see here, I was quite surprised when Mike reported it to be good on orchestral, as it is not balanced enough for full symphony, since it does spotlight some areas during tuttis. I did expect the slight leanness in midbass to be highlighted more in Mike's system than any other, and for him to move on, which is why I asked the below



However, it is still my favorite cart along with the red sparrow on a LT. Regarding the etched part, VDH does sound that way when not properly set up or possibly through SS gear. Also, the sample to sample variance of VDH is high, possibly the maximum.

Additionally. Tang disabled his Hoelscher (Cello) on VDH, else I would have posted that plus his Hoelscher on Opus that, as far as videos go, showcases the midbass difference well. But then on the Harpsichord VDH was so far superior the other carts were non-listenable. I wouldn't use VDH for amplified rock, either.

That said, VDH aside, I am not doubting what Al and Ian heard. I think when VDH sounds natural and good, they will accept that too. This is not rocket science. If they are hearing these issues, these are valid issues that can exist in a VDH system with Pass electronics. So it could sound like they said, the fact that Peter is not hearing etched and lean midbass while they are is confusing. As long as they are referring to the same auditioned music.

What a great post, Ked. This all makes sense to me. Btw, what does LT mean?

I do find that Pass electronics have a slight metallic or gray house sound and perhaps when combined with the vdH I hear this character more. I do feel that with a more colorful valve sound the vdH would be more balanced. But this is how I hear it.. with MY notion of what natural music sounds like and my experience with both valves and solid state gear. Peter wouldn't agree and that's part of what makes this hobby interesting.

 

[bonzo75]

What a great post, Ked. This all makes sense to me. Btw, what does LT mean?

I do find that Pass electronics have a slight metallic or gray house sound and perhaps when combined with the vdH I hear this character more. I do feel that with a more colorful valve sound the vdH would be more balanced. But this is how I hear it.. with MY notion of what natural music sounds like and my experience with both valves and solid state gear. Peter wouldn't agree and that's part of what makes this hobby interesting.

Thanks. Linear tracker