Sublime Sound

[PeterA]

Very strange - in my SME 3012R's the arm tube is perfectly parallel with the headshells - and the SME drawings show it this way. May be your tonearm headshell connector is misplaced or damaged.

I agree it seems strange. When I have some time I will get around to checking out my two NOS arms.

 

[Steve Williams]

I am perhaps not as far down the rabbit hole as he is (but then as you have seen, who is?) but I am definitely in the same paradigm on how to achieve natural sound.

FWIW, if you have been to David's house to hear his system as well as understand his philosophy about "natural" sound you quickly understand that he is not going down any rabbit hole but rather encouraging everyone to get out of the rabbit.hole

Brad you commented on David's lack of use of cable for tuning. He does....He uses roll cable that he buys in bulk. It is the cheapest cable he could find. No rabbit hole there. He uses Ching Cheng $5.50 Power cords that many of us also now use. No rabbit hole there. He uses zero tweaks in his system and encourages everyone to de tweak...so IMO it is you who are down the rabbit hole, not David

 

[morricab]

FWIW, if you have been to David's house to hear his system as well as understand his philosophy about "natural" sound you quickly understand that he is not going down any rabbit hole but rather encouraging everyone to get out of the rabbit.hole

Brad you commented on David's lack of use of cable for tuning. He does....He uses roll cable that he buys in bulk. It is the cheapest cable he could find. No rabbit hole there. He uses Ching Cheng $5.50 Power cords that many of us also now use. No rabbit hole there. He uses zero tweaks in his system and encourages everyone to de tweak...so IMO it is you who are down the rabbit hole, not David

By rabbit hole I meant unobtanium (and very expensive) speakers, unobtanium (and very expensive) TTs, rare (and expensive) arms, rare cartriduges and very expensive electronics. That is a pretty deep rabbit hole from my perspective (and I have gone down it some ways).

As to the cables and such, I have found this to be very system and power quality dependent (for power cords). Other than moderately expensive power cables, which I found to work well from trial and error, I don't have super exotic interconnects or speaker cables either.

 

[Steve Williams]

By rabbit hole I meant unobtanium (and very expensive) speakers, unobtanium (and very expensive) TTs, rare (and expensive) arms, rare cartriduges and very expensive electronics. That is a pretty deep rabbit hole from my perspective (and I have gone down it some ways).

As to the cables and such, I have found this to be very system and power quality dependent (for power cords). Other than moderately expensive power cables, which I found to work well from trial and error, I don't have super exotic interconnects or speaker cables either.

Once again I disagree

He only uses an out of production SME 3012R arms which can be had for $2500 and his speakers are not unobtanium just merely vintage. The stands he uses are cheap machine metal desks that he buys from EBay and there are no isolation devices , grounding stations etc etc etc. There is no rabbit hole at all in David's system IMHO

 

[Lagonda]

Once again I disagree

He only uses an out of production SME 3012R arms which can be had for $2500 and his speakers are not unobtanium just merely vintage. The stands he uses are cheap machine metal desks that he buys from EBay and there are no isolation devices , grounding stations etc etc etc. There is no rabbit hole at all in David's system IMHO

Steve let me copy/paste what i just wrote Marc 5 minutes ago.
"The SME 3012R arms cost somewhere between 2 and 3 k where most of the audiophile arms cost at least 10 times that. Do you think Tang would have gotten rid of his SAT and other arms if they where superior ? The CC power cord are 25$ a piece for me, what others are charged i don't know Marc. He is not making much money on any of that, its basically a service he offers his customer, together with teaching them how to properly set up cartridge. I'm doubt Peter paid more than 15-20k for his new TT, that probably performs better than a brand new TechDas, and will most likely hold its resale price because it is sought after vintage. David is not hypnotizing anyone he is a pretty cost efficient way of getting a great system at a good price, or a fantastic system at a expensive price if you can afford it. I doubt he has even made 500$ profit on all the small things i have gotten from him, and his advice is always free. "
The pricing for the CC power-cords was from 2 years ago, i have not managed to get David to charge me for the last ones i received recently, he is more interested in making his customers/friends happy, than actually getting paid

 

[ddk]

Once again I disagree

He only uses an out of production SME 3012R arms which can be had for $2500 and his speakers are not unobtanium just merely vintage. The stands he uses are cheap machine metal desks that he buys from EBay and there are no isolation devices , grounding stations etc etc etc. There is no rabbit hole at all in David's system IMHO

@morricab, to Steve's point "down the rabbit hole" is the opposite of what I'm doing. That phrase basically means means one has dug a hole so deep that they're lost, it's the opposite I have full clarity and nothing in the system or setup is ambiguous. The only major change since Steve's visit are my Nothing Racks that while much better than the lab tables I was using are still grounded in the same principles. I don't have any "audiophile" ancillaries in the system at all. To clarify, I have nothing against high priced items my choice of SME tonearms or inexpensive off the shelf power cords and cables has nothing to do with cost it's only performance based and I did my research before settling on these products. You're correct about the main system, I did go all out on everything.

david

 

[morricab]

Once again I disagree

He only uses an out of production SME 3012R arms which can be had for $2500 and his speakers are not unobtanium just merely vintage. The stands he uses are cheap machine metal desks that he buys from EBay and there are no isolation devices , grounding stations etc etc etc. There is no rabbit hole at all in David's system IMHO

Bionors are VERY hard to find...so are M9500s. THey are invariably very expensive. I don't know what the other two speakers he has are (other than some Diatone model). Lamm is very expensive, even used, as you are no doubt aware. The TTs he has are ALL rare (at least the top 5) and expensive. Ok, maybe the arms are not so expensive (I guess SME made a lot of that arm) but the number of arms he probably went through before deciding that the SME was the best is likely to be mindboggling. His cartridges are all pretty dear I think and he has a lot of them. You are ignoring all the stuff he has bought and sold (including expesive cables in the past I am sure) over the years as part of the rabbit hole. I didn't necessarily mean it perjoratively, it just is a deep hole of dedication to getting his vision.

You seem to think it is only "ancillaries" that defines the rabbit hole but it is everything that went into getting him where he is today.

As clever humans, we can take advantage of his going down there...assuming you share his vision. I had only discovered

 

[morricab]

@morricab, to Steve's point "down the rabbit hole" is the opposite of what I'm doing. That phrase basically means means one has dug a hole so deep that they're lost, it's the opposite I have full clarity and nothing in the system or setup is ambiguous. The only major change since Steve's visit are my Nothing Racks that while much better than the lab tables I was using are still grounded in the same principles. I don't have any "audiophile" ancillaries in the system at all. To clarify, I have nothing against high priced items my choice of SME tonearms or inexpensive off the shelf power cords and cables has nothing to do with cost it's only performance based and I did my research before settling on these products. You're correct about the main system, I did go all out on everything.

david

Hi David,
I didn't mean it that way but if one looks at the level of commitment, time, money you have spent to achieve your vision of natural sound this is far beyond what most would be willing to invest...and not the money. Think of all the effort searching out those rare and amazing machines, for example. I understand your ancillaries are not expensive (at least compared to your main gear) but you had very expensive ancillaries in the past, no? I am a scientist and I now what good lab tables with air suspension cost...I used/purchased them for years with lasers and optics and all that good stuff. Probably you had expensive cables before realizing they weren't making the difference you thought in your system and the inexpensive stuff was working just as well...or perhaps better (there is no reason the reverse can't be true as you discovered). I had really excellent sounding systems with just plain off the the shelf power cables that made some dealers who came over snort...until they heard the system and then they shut up. I finally found some that in my current system make a noticeable positive step and so I went with them...they are not huge money...but not super cheap either. I have no desire to pursue that further though as a result.

I respect what you have done...it takes dedication to ones passions to achieve. BTW, PM me regarding some speakers (I want to run some ideas by you) and your Nothing rack...I am curious.

 

[ddk]

Hi David,
I didn't mean it that way but if one looks at the level of commitment, time, money you have spent to achieve your vision of natural sound this is far beyond what most would be willing to invest...and not the money. Think of all the effort searching out those rare and amazing machines, for example. I understand your ancillaries are not expensive (at least compared to your main gear) but you had very expensive ancillaries in the past, no? I am a scientist and I now what good lab tables with air suspension cost...I used/purchased them for years with lasers and optics and all that good stuff. Probably you had expensive cables before realizing they weren't making the difference you thought in your system and the inexpensive stuff was working just as well...or perhaps better (there is no reason the reverse can't be true as you discovered). I had really excellent sounding systems with just plain off the the shelf power cables that made some dealers who came over snort...until they heard the system and then they shut up. I finally found some that in my current system make a noticeable positive step and so I went with them...they are not huge money...but not super cheap either. I have no desire to pursue that further though as a result.

I respect what you have done...it takes dedication to ones passions to achieve. BTW, PM me regarding some speakers (I want to run some ideas by you) and your Nothing rack...I am curious.

Hi Brad,
I know what you meant it was just the phrase. I did own many very expensive audiophile cables and dealt in a lot of brands, experience comes from learning both from mistakes and successes. With audiophile cables I got to a point that I simply ran out of choices and had to look at the basic wires again. Starting from the late 80's cables and power cords became powerful components with their own character which is fine for a typical magazine driven hifi system but a problem when one is trying to set up a neutral and natural sounding system, the two are just incompatible. I'm not trying to define a path for anyone just stating the fact that the role of ancillaries shifted from support with minimal interference to dominance, it's something that the manufacturers advertise themselves. For me this is where the shift occurs, both are sound one is the character of the system defining things the other is the music and real sound taking precedence even if imperfect. It's a personal choice!

david

 

[microstrip]

Once again I disagree
(...) and his speakers are not unobtanium just merely vintage. (...)

Steve,
Can you get me the Bionor's?

 

[Lagonda]

Steve,
Can you get me the Bionor's?

You would just complain when you could not sell them again, because nobody in Portugal knows what they are

 

[Steve Williams]

Steve,
Can you get me the Bionor's?

to me it was smart research and shopping on David's part. Besides they won't fit in your room

 

[Steve Williams]

Steve,
Can you get me the Bionor's?

Have you even heard the Bionor

 

[microstrip]

to me it was smart research and shopping on David's part. Besides they won't fit in your room

They will fit the new one. Please send them!

 

[Steve Williams]

I bet if you sold all of your tweaks, you'd be able to afford them

 

[microstrip]

I bet if you sold all of your tweaks, you'd be able to afford them

My most expensive tweaks are the CMS center stage footers ...

 

[morricab]

Steve,
Can you get me the Bionor's?

That begs the question, what would they cost if you can find them? With JBL Paragons going for like 40k, surely they more than that? Or does their size restrict clientele and reduce the price?

 

[Steve Williams]

That begs the question, what would they cost if you can find them? With JBL Paragons going for like 40k, surely they more than that? Or does their size restrict clientele and reduce the price?

It doesn't matter as they have been labeled as unobtanium

 

[microstrip]

You would just complain when you could not sell them again, because nobody in Portugal knows what they are

Curiously the Lamm's are well known in my country - they demoed with Wilson Audio in shows in the past and got large enthusiastic audio press coverage and word of mouth from some regular international show goers.

They would sound great in Peter's room, but real interest in Europe on the brand is unfortunately low.

 

[PeterA]

Curiously the Lamm's are well known in my country - they demoed with Wilson Audio in shows in the past and got large enthusiastic audio press coverage and word of mouth from some regular international show goers.

They would sound great in Peter's room, but real interest in Europe on the brand is unfortunately low.

I would love your ML3s, but I don't know the condition and I don't think I want to pay what you are asking.