Streamer DAC Matching

[NC Lee]

Vitus amp, Magico S5 speakers; source shopping.
I've compared a few streamers and I don't hear tone differences, though some are quieter and cleaner, more 'black' and space.
Is it a mis-match to pair a say $8-10k DAC with a simple streamer, say a Lumin or Innuos costing $2,500?
Do I leave some of the DACs performance in the box with a streamer not of similar price?

 

[Audire]

You have what appears to be a very good system coming together. I’m presently using Vitus SM-103s monos with Magico M3s and an Aurender N30SA streamer. We use an EMM DA2V2 DAC at present, but that will be changing this DAC shortly.

The DAC in your system is very, very important. I’d get the best that I could afford. IMO the DAC is more important than the streamer. For streamers I prefer Aurender w/ Vitus. Aurender has an awesome app.

Congrats: Vitus + Magico is just fantastic!

 

[Bobvin]

Forgive me for saying this… a Taiko Extreme server (may be beyond your price point) will make every DAC better. It just does. I have not compared to some other pricey servers/streamers, but the Extreme server made it seem my Rossini DAC was much better. Some might argue the server is higher importance in the digital chain. Of course, others (above) will argue the other way.

 

[msimanyi]

Price doesn’t guarantee performance, and it seems to me that “digital streaming” technology is closer to infancy than DAC tech. I think your emphasis on the DAC is logical.

Now, if your budget can cover a Taiko as noted above, you might want to consider it. Buy once, cry once.

I think exposing yourself to all the issues in streaming with a Lumin or Innuous makes sense though. Buy used, if you can, and if you decide to step up quickly it won‘t be costly.

 

[Alrainbow]

When you say streaming explain what exactly is meant ?
How can a the dac connected to streamer ?
is your intention to just stream off the internet with various platforms?
I’m curious

 

[Tam Lin]

Forgive me for saying this… a Taiko Extreme server (may be beyond your price point) will make every DAC better. It just does. I have not compared to some other pricey servers/streamers, but the Extreme server made it seem my Rossini DAC was much better. Some might argue the server is higher importance in the digital chain. Of course, others (above) will argue the other way.

Forgive me for asking this… How does a Taiko Extreme server make every DAC better. I want a technical answer, not audiophile wishful thinking. "The Extreme server made it seem my Rossini DAC was much better."

 

[davidavdavid]

I've been told, on numerous occasions, that BACON makes everything better. #pointofcontext

 

[Bobvin]

Forgive me for asking this… How does a Taiko Extreme server make every DAC better. I want a technical answer, not audiophile wishful thinking. "The Extreme server made it seem my Rossini DAC was much better."

Is easy but not technical answer: garbage in, garbage out. For technical details, perhaps read the very, very lengthy Extreme server thread. sadly requires much parsing of irrelevant data.

Also, beware the bias of Taiko owners who I’m sure will all tell you their system took a major leap forward when they installed the extreme.

Back when computer memory was expensive engineers wrote code then optimized it so it was smaller and more efficient, using less memory for the same function. Those days went away with cheap RAM. But team Taiko optimizes for sound quality, write the function then see if there is a way to do it differently that sounds better. (This is my interpretation of what they are doing.) If the software can be optimized, why not the hardware. If the environment the bits comes from is quieter, less noisy, and more stable it stands to reason the receiving DAC will have a more “pure” signal to work with absent whatever hash or grunge (these are highly technical terms) might be riding the carrier of those bits. Once the noise gets in, it will contaminate the DAC environment. In this way I say every DAC gets better. Less garbage in, less garbage out.

Don’t get all worked up if my answer is not as technical as you would like. I was trained as a petroleum engineer. Later I spent almost a decade in the tech industry but I was not a hardware guy.

Finally, with respect to my comment “made it seem my Rossini was better” I intentionally chose to not make a declarative statement less somebody were to say “prove it with double blind test” or some such qualitative nonsense when I was clearly trying to be subjective.

(Full disclosure — I am a brand ambassador for Taiko through my affiliation with Rhapsody.Audio in NYC. I own everything in my signature.)

 

[bryans]

@NC Lee My advice is to go to your dealers and listen. If any of them sound good, take one home for a demo in your system. There are plenty of great DACs and streamers in your price range. I believe you can get some great sound pairing a 8-10K DAC with a 2.5K Streamer.

There are quite a few dealers in NC that carry some great products as you know.

 

[Tam Lin]

If the environment the bits comes from is quieter, less noisy, and more stable it stands to reason the receiving DAC will have a more “pure” signal to work with absent whatever hash or grunge (these are highly technical terms) might be riding the carrier of those bits.

If that's all the server does there are more effective and less expensive ways to do it. You audio guys are good at memorizing technical terms but you don't know what they mean. Where does the "hash and grunge" (to use your highly technical terms) come from and why is it "riding the carrier of those bits?" And what does any of that have to do with the price of RAM?

 

[NC Lee]

If that's all the server does there are more effective and less expensive ways to do it. You audio guys are good at memorizing technical terms but you don't know what they mean. Where does the "hash and grunge" (to use your highly technical terms) come from and why is it "riding the carrier of those bits?" And what does any of that have to do with the price of RAM?

"You audio guys...." If you want a fight go to Twitter. Or ASR to debate whatever it is that's bugging you.
I'm trying to get opinion to narrow my search for a front end to my system.
So far, no one has said, " You need to spend at least $x,000, generally speaking, to get a streamer worthy of your system."
Or told me, "Streamers don't impart much tone or detail as long as you have a good one from a reputable firm, like Aurender."

 

[bryans]

So far, no one has said, " You need to spend at least $x,000, generally speaking, to get a streamer worthy of your system."
Or told me, "Streamers don't impart much tone or detail as long as you have a good one from a reputable firm, like Aurender."

In my honest opinion, if someone tells you this, don't believe them. Believe me people will without a doubt tell you what to buy. Funny what they tell you seems to match what they purchased (not always but mostly). Honestly I can tell you what I like, but I can't tell you what you will like. This is why I suggested you visit some dealers and listen to what they have. Then take the unit home to your setup and listen. If it sounds great in your setup it is great for you.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

@NC Lee as a reference for your exploration, I have used three set-ups for streaming music.

Initially, I wanted to test the concept of streaming: would it work well and would I like it. A friend helped me set-up an RPi with a WD Red drive, loaded with files I ripped from some CDs. I used JRiver software. I connected the "streamer" to the DAC input in my Luxman SACD player. Voila! Music.

IMO, the Luxman SACD player spinning discs sounded better than the RPi...but the little Pi was pretty darn good, and considering the start-up costs, it was very nice.

I figured out I liked streaming and thought maybe there was better sound to be had, so I bought an Aurender ACS10. I ripped the rest of my collection, tried Tidal and managed with the Aurender Conductor app. I later added a Chord Qutest (and much later an MScaler and later still, a DAVE) dac instead of using the DAC in the Luxman. The sound was very, very good, and that system worked very well. None of the occasional RPi hiccups. IMO, this system was flat-out better sounding than the RPi, both with the Qutest alone and more so with the other bits. But it costs a lot more money.

After a year or two, I figured out I really liked using and streaming digital files (other than CDs), so I bought a Taiko Extreme and modified my DAVE ps and USB input. Much later I bought an MSB Reference dac. Wow is that system sweet. Network is optimized. Sound is amazing. But a lot more money.

For price-performance, the little Qutest set-up gets you a lot. It's really nice. Even a little RPi is nice. But IMO the Taiko and MSB set-up is holy-mackerel nice. And that's a lot/lot more money.

I think @bryans and others are offering helpful suggestions re: auditioning things you think you might like, and which suit your budget and aesthetics. I think you could find your personal "sweet-spot" anywhere along the path, based on what you hear. There is a lot of cool stuff out there and it's fun to explore it, which is what you are trying to do. Good Luck!

 

[NC Lee]

In my honest opinion, if someone tells you this, don't believe them. Believe me people will without a doubt tell you what to buy. Funny what they tell you seems to match what they purchased (not always but mostly). Honestly I can tell you what I like, but I can't tell you what you will like. This is why I suggested you visit some dealers and listen to what they have. Then take the unit home to your setup and listen. If it sounds great in your setup it is great for you.

I am doing just that. But there are a world of options. I half joke that, when I buy a pair of socks, I do a spreadsheet of the costs and benefits of every pair I can find. My Vitus has a built-in DAC so that's my baseline- and its good. I have had a number of candidates through my home, though listening in a shop is difficult for me to draw conclusions when the differences are so small. (Moved my speakers 6" last week: gained weight in the 100s hz and cancelled in the 40s hz.) Educated opinions are a data point and can help narrow a search. My ears and wallet the arbiter.
But yes, I am looking for short cuts I will not find! But I do appreciate the opinions. And one of the posters to this thread helped me land on my Vitus amp- which I had not heard of two years ago and am pleased with.
A challenge here, my speakers and amp can be forever; streamer DACs seem to have a shorter life.

 

[Bobvin]

In my honest opinion, if someone tells you this, don't believe them. Believe me people will without a doubt tell you what to buy. Funny what they tell you seems to match what they purchased (not always but mostly). Honestly I can tell you what I like, but I can't tell you what you will like. This is why I suggested you visit some dealers and listen to what they have. Then take the unit home to your setup and listen. If it sounds great in your setup it is great for you.

Is very good advice.

And like Marcus (above) I too started pretty small. Used parts to begin, then built my own fanless server and used JRiver. JRiver had memory leaks that meant I was rebooting every few days that got old. Added an Audio Research DAC which was OK until i compared to something much cheaper that sounded better. My wife bought me my dCS Rossini DAC for my birthday, for a server I used an intel NUC configured as a Roon ROCK. Finally I added the Extreme and as someone said pay once cry once. With Taiko you get an evolving platform with amazing support.

But for sure, if you have the patience try multiple combinations to discover what you like. The used market is great for this.

the world of digital & streaming has so much convenience and is getting better and better and much more “organic” sounding.

 

[Rexp]

I am doing just that. But there are a world of options. I half joke that, when I buy a pair of socks, I do a spreadsheet of the costs and benefits of every pair I can find. My Vitus has a built-in DAC so that's my baseline- and its good. I have had a number of candidates through my home, though listening in a shop is difficult for me to draw conclusions when the differences are so small. (Moved my speakers 6" last week: gained weight in the 100s hz and cancelled in the 40s hz.) Educated opinions are a data point and can help narrow a search. My ears and wallet the arbiter.
But yes, I am looking for short cuts I will not find! But I do appreciate the opinions. And one of the posters to this thread helped me land on my Vitus amp- which I had not heard of two years ago and am pleased with.
A challenge here, my speakers and amp can be forever; streamer DACs seem to have a shorter life.

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[abeidrov]

Vitus amp, Magico S5 speakers; source shopping.
I've compared a few streamers and I don't hear tone differences, though some are quieter and cleaner, more 'black' and space.
Is it a mis-match to pair a say $8-10k DAC with a simple streamer, say a Lumin or Innuos costing $2,500?
Do I leave some of the DACs performance in the box with a streamer not of similar price?

In my case the tone of Aurender streamer (N20 and N30SA) was very different to the other streamer I had at the time. I would strongly advice to audition an Aurender streamer, if you have such opportunity.

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

It's not uncommon for certain devices to pair well even with gear tenfold the price - I've heard opinions of our ZEN Stream doing great in systems worth a house. It's all about the sound, if it suits you, then the price is just a number.

 

[NC Lee]

In my case the tone of Aurender streamer (N20 and N30SA) was very different to the other streamer I had at the time. I would strongly advice to audition an Aurender streamer, if you have such opportunity.

Interesting comment, given this weekend, setting up a new room with old equipment, I compared my old N100 to a Lumin T3. The Aurender was more natural, more coherent and offered more space between the notes. The tonal presentation suited me. With my prior Devialet- a different system, it sounded a bit dry. I realize this means practically nothing other than I to have me thinking Aurender again.

 

[Peguinpower]

I havent invested heavily on a streamer, and have a couple of decent DACs.

Doing tests, Ive found a significant difference between coax and USB inputs. I upgraded from a Node 2i to a Node (N130) streamer after testing a loaner. DACs are a humble Denafrips Venus II and Holoaudio Spring 3 KTE.

My next streamer, I’ll want an I2S outputor maybe a decent DDC in between.