State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[morricab]

And this about the K3

" In many ways, the K3 reminds me of the Continuum Caliburn, from the international design team to the effective mix of science, art, and reach-for-the-stars innovation. However, 16 years later, the K3's turbocharged, precision performance blows the chrome doors off of the Caliburn, although it is still a great turntable and a classic design. Time marches on. Records spin round and round."

Analog Corner #314: OMA K3 turntable & Schröder tonearm Page 2

Atmospheric pressure maintains a special grade of viscous oil at bearing height within the pressurized inverted bearing upon which the 14", 30lb platter rides.

www.stereophile.com

He kind of has to write things like this…as if there is actually some kind of new technology inside it…there is not. I am skeptical of the design choice of using a super high torque motor. How evenly that motor delivers the torque matters more than the raw grunt…the speed control of a DD is of paramount concern…how tight is tha regulation, how many layers? How does it measure the speed and how frequently? All the heavy metal casting is nice but without really proper speed regulation it is for naught. A high mass platter helps to smooth irregularity but has its own issues with energy storage and release.

 

[bonzo75]

He kind of has to write things like this…as if there is actually some kind of new technology inside it…there is not. I am skeptical of the design choice of using a super high torque motor. How evenly that motor delivers the torque matters more than the raw grunt…the speed control of a DD is of paramount concern…how tight is tha regulation, how many layers? How does it measure the speed and how frequently? All the heavy metal casting is nice but without really proper speed regulation it is for naught. A high mass platter helps to smooth irregularity but has its own issues with energy storage and release.

Did you read the article? "The K3 produced the best overall measurements I've encountered (figs.1 & 2), but not by large margins. " He does not need to write things like these at all, nor does he.

 

[morricab]

I wonder what he'd say about a 16 year old K3?

Technologically. Call urn is at least as advanced. The thinking in resonance control was impressive and the motor, although belt drive, was also very advanced and expensive (the designer once told me that motor cost them $8K) with zero cogging and ultra low torque ripple.

 

[bonzo75]

i'd be surprised if Fremer has made any decision about his next 'keeper' tt. but i have no inside info one way or another. we all just have to stay tuned and read the smoke signals.

there are so many versions of the 'ultimate' tt being introduced in the recent past into this next year that you would expect Michael to take his time and play the field. why would he not? a permanent tt would just get in the way.

At around 6:14 here J. Weiss says Fremer bought it. Thanks to Bill for sending the link to point this out

At 11:10 Weiss says it was marked for Mike L who had to cancel so he sent to Mike F

 

[Mike Lavigne]

At around 6:14 here J. Weiss says Fremer bought it.

i would not take that to the bank.

At 11:10 Weiss says it was marked for Mike L who had to cancel so he sent to Mike F

 

[bonzo75]

i would not take that to the bank.

But it would really suck if he thought he could get away with saying wrong stuff in a public setting where people record. And then Fremer would be furious if such a claim was incorrectly made.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

True. But it would really suck if he thought he could get away with saying wrong stuff in a public setting where people record. And then Fremer would be furious if such a claim was incorrectly made.

Jonathan plays the game weapon's free. no filter. but i agree that what he said could be right. but not quite bankably right. when Fremer provides clarity we will know.

and that's now 2 weeks ago, a lot might have changed since.

 

[tima]

At 11:10 Weiss says it was marked for Mike L who had to cancel so he sent to Mike F

The version I see doesn't go to 11:10.

At ~9:24 the trombones sound really good.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The version I see doesn't go to 11:10.

imagine that. that Ked was playing games. if Jonathan even knows my name he would not admit it publicly.

At ~11:00 the trombones sound really good.

 

[tima]

imagine that. that Ked was playing games.

Trombones come in ~9:24.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

True. But it would really suck if he thought he could get away with saying wrong stuff in a public setting where people record. And then Fremer would be furious if such a claim was incorrectly made.

I agree. Also that Weiss explains that he opted for the version with external power supply rather than integrated stand is expanding on the statement rather than throwaway.

 

[tima]

Did you read the article? "The K3 produced the best overall measurements I've encountered (figs.1 & 2), but not by large margins. " He does not need to write things like these at all, nor does he.

That measurement is taken with a cell-phone app name 'PlatterSpeed' that is no longer available. (The domain name 'platterspeed.com' is for sale.)

You play a record with a 3150 Hz sine wave and hold the phone in front of a speaker. Wow is calculated according to DIN IEC 386. The app says the results have limited precisions due to the limited audio capabilities of the phone. Fremer has been using the app as authoritative for several years now. The graphics look nice. I believe the app was a Feickert product and it acknowledges that Adjust+ is more accurate. No information is available about the accuracy of Fremer's phone or calibration of the app. It can yield different results depending on the record used.

The measurements cited are not measurements taken directly from the platter.

 

[bonzo75]

That measurement is taken with a cell-phone app name 'PlatterSpeed' that is no longer available. (The domain name 'platterspeed.com' is for sale.)

You play a record with a 3150 Hz sine wave and hold the phone in front of a speaker. Wow is calculated according to DIN IEC 386. The app says the results have limited precisions due to the limited audio capabilities of the phone. Fremer has been using the app as authoritative for several years now. The graphics look nice. I believe the app was a Feickert product and it acknowledges that Adjust+ is more accurate. No information is available about the accuracy of Fremer's phone or calibration of the app. It can yield different results depending on the record used.

The measurements cited are not measurements taken directly from the platter.

Yes he mentions that: "Remember: The Platterspeed and shaknspin apps are not scientific devices; rather, they're intended to provide an informal baseline. I continue using them because the better turntables measure better, but neither does much more than take speed and wow and flutter averages over time."

 

[morricab]

i don't know, other than i've not seen his Caliburn listed for sale. i have no doubt that the Caliburn.....at it's best ........would be mostly competitive with the best current offerings. the rub with the Caliburn is that it's a complicated, involved product, and keeping it in tip top shape is not trivial. it's arm can be bettered. and....... just like the Rockport Sirius III, which has a power supply that can 'go off'......not all used Caliburn's or Sirius III's are equivalent.

and Mr. Fremer likely wants a more relevant reference turntable.

Strange that it developed problems after such a short time. I have 40+ year old DDs that run perfectly, power supplies give accurate voltages and bearings flawless

That measurement is taken with a cell-phone app name 'PlatterSpeed' that is no longer available. (The domain name 'platterspeed.com' is for sale.)

You play a record with a 3150 Hz sine wave and hold the phone in front of a speaker. Wow is calculated according to DIN IEC 386. The app says the results have limited precisions due to the limited audio capabilities of the phone. Fremer has been using the app as authoritative for several years now. The graphics look nice. I believe the app was a Feickert product and it acknowledges that Adjust+ is more accurate. No information is available about the accuracy of Fremer's phone or calibration of the app. It can yield different results depending on the record used.

The measurements cited are not measurements taken directly from the platter.

I actually was a beta user for Adjust+ and have a pre-production copy of it. I know both Chris and the software developer. Works brilliantly but requires a bit of user training to get it right.

 

[tima]

Yes he mentions that: "Remember: The Platterspeed and shaknspin apps are not scientific devices; rather, they're intended to provide an informal baseline. I continue using them because the better turntables measure better, but neither does much more than take speed and wow and flutter averages over time."

I see that now. First time I have read something like that from MF, although I have not read every one of his TT reviews. It's good that he includes that caveat.

 

[microstrip]

Let me riff on this. What are we looking for?

Are we looking for "valid individual subjective opinions" ?
Are we looking for "valid objective data" ?

I would think information such as 'the tonearm VTF is set to 1.65 grams" or "the SRA is measured at 91.2° could be considred 'objective data' - assuming of course we used nine different scales and three USB cameras, or whatever measuring is sufficient for conferring 'objective' status on the effort. Unless it is inferred, data is data. Data is neither valid or invalid.

Is a single individual agreeing to that data considered a subjective opinion? And a large group of individuals repeatedly discerning the same measurement makes it objective data? Are data and opinions opposites? No - they are two different things.

I don't know what is a "data opinion".

"Valid" means the conclusion follows from its premises; it is an assessment of a syllogism.
The notion of a "valid individual subjective opinion" sounds a bit like a category mistake. Must we formulate a person's opinion into a syllogism to confer validity? No - we don't care that much about validity - we care if the cartridge adjustments sound better or worse.

Can there ever be a "valid objective assessment" of cartridge setup? No - we can take a bunch of measurements and agree on those, but such is not the objective. The objective is better sound.

Is a group of people generally agreeing on certain things considered "friendship bias" which if it exists is a bad thing? The use of "bias" on this forum tends to be loosey-goosey. "Bias" usually means an inclination or opinion that is unreasoned or preconceived of evidence.

The discussion here strikes me more as forum nattering.

I would welcome a group of friends or even unaffiliated individuals to offer opinions about the sound of various cartridge adjustments. There is no "true" or "valid" cartridge setup apart from what one or more people think of it.

Tim,

Words have clear meaning in science and also in audio science - I am not addressing a few magazines articles, but thousands of papers published in refereed publications and books by audio experts. I stick to such lexicon.

People are free to negate the traditional and respected use of words, creating a lot of confusion and trying to emerge as the creators of something new. As long as they do it in their system threads I will respect their wishes, only participating in them if I find their alternative perspective and language denigrates and misleads people about the more frequent current views.

BTW, "valid individual subjective opinion" in this context means an "individual subjective opinion" that was formulated in conditions that assure us that it was an independent opinion of the person.

Believe or not, audio has formal science behind it - did you read about the listening tests that Valdimir Lamm carried to validate his perceptual models?

You can surely disregard such aspects considering them as "forum nattering" - my hope is that the WBF members are really interested in discussing something other than just then saying their reference is real sound and else is secondary.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I agree. Also that Weiss explains that he opted for the version with external power supply rather than integrated stand is expanding on the statement rather than throwaway.

it is confirmed that Michael Fremer did, in fact, buy the K3.

congrats to Michael! good for him. and good for Jonathan Weiss too.

 

[microstrip]

i don't know, other than i've not seen his Caliburn listed for sale. i have no doubt that the Caliburn.....at it's best ........would be mostly competitive with the best current offerings. the rub with the Caliburn is that it's a complicated, involved product, and keeping it in tip top shape is not trivial. it's arm can be bettered. and....... just like the Rockport Sirius III, which has a power supply that can 'go off'......not all used Caliburn's or Sirius III's are equivalent.

and Mr. Fremer likely wants a more relevant reference turntable.

The good friend who owns the Caliburn never had problems, although I think he once carried an upgrade. But yes, change is part of the life of reviewers - readers want it.

 

[microstrip]

Yes he mentions that: "Remember: The Platterspeed and shaknspin apps are not scientific devices; rather, they're intended to provide an informal baseline. I continue using them because the better turntables measure better, but neither does much more than take speed and wow and flutter averages over time."

One problem with these non scientific devices is that they provide very limited information and can not be used in a reliable way - I know that if the measurements are nice looking and we like turntable sound we are happy to see them. But will people be happy to know that the equivalent measurements of the $20k Technics SP-1000R are better?

Just MHO, but I prefer no measurements at all to "informal baseline" data. BTW, we had a thread about this subject sometime ago.

 

[microstrip]

Strange that it developed problems after such a short time. I have 40+ year old DDs that run perfectly, power supplies give accurate voltages and bearings flawless

I actually was a beta user for Adjust+ and have a pre-production copy of it. I know both Chris and the software developer. Works brilliantly but requires a bit of user training to get it right.

Do you carry the final adjustment of VTA using Adjust+?