State of the Art Speakers and Imaging: Insights on SotA Planars vs Dynamic vs Omni Speakers vs The Real Thing

[Ron Resnick]

I thought he said Unos? It is possible with duos though if he hasn't heard good Altecs, DIY JBL, etc.

It is not my cup of tea, but I can totally understand how someone can like Duos (if driven with a liquid-sounding and slightly warm-balanced SET amplifier).

 

[bonzo75]

It is not my cup of tea, but I can totally understand how someone can like Duos (if driven with a liquid-sounding and slightly warm-balanced SET amplifier).

Especially when they haven't heard lower priced Altecs, Tads, radians, or JBLs.

These forum discussions sound more like online therapy sessions than discussing audio gear.

The OP already made a mistake with no one on the forum telling him otherwise when he bought the wrong speaker for his room. He admits that, and now repeats the mistake buying wrong sonics for the money. He should buy 15 inch tannoy gold in Lockwood cabinets with modded crossovers for under 5k GBP, and run them with Luxman integrated instead

 

[Hear Here]

Bonzo75,

Has it occurred to you that Peter might like Duos?

Thanks Ron. Yes I do like the Duos and before that Unos. I've tried many alternative speakers within a sensible budget including electrostatics and conventional box ones, but the Avantgardes (even my relatively old ones) have offered the most satisfying sound - so far.

Bonzo's contributions have been somewhat unhelpful and grossly biased. He refers to his 2017 advice to me on the ML Owners forum. However when someone (knowing the layout of my particular room) says such things as:

"I would take the Summits over the Unos any day, and the trios over any electrostat."

and

"ATCs are sh*t. So are dynaudio"

and

"he bought the wrong speaker for his room. He admits that, and now repeats the mistake buying wrong sonics for the money. He should buy 15 inch tannoy gold in Lockwood cabinets with modded crossovers for under 5k GBP, and run them with Luxman integrated instead"

and on this forum

"Anyway, I am sorry to disappoint you, while you have gone horns, you have chosen the wrong one."

... I tend to ignore such "advice", although I'm sure it was well intended from someone who believes he knows far more than others including professional reviewers. I appreciate knowledgeable advice and suggestions of equipment that MAY be suitable - in MY room, to MY ears and for MY preferred type of music, but to be TOLD what I should have is perhaps not so helpful. Peter

 

[bonzo75]

I stand by all those statements. At least they are not emotional, just well thought out. Bias, btw, is when someone buys on forum recommendations, makes a mistake, then repeats it. Lack of exposure and preference are often confused on this forum like on many others

 

[Hear Here]

I stand by all those statements. At least they are not emotional, just well thought out. Bias, btw, is when someone buys on forum recommendations, makes a mistake, then repeats it. Lack of exposure and preference are often confused on this forum like on many others

Yes, a poor choice was made in buying the ML speakers but your statement "I would take the Summits over the Unos any day" was surely an encouragement to buy electrostatics from ML to replace the Unos. The Masterpiece Expression 13A that I bought is a big improvement over the 2-generations older Summit. Your advice was poor. The MLs were not as good sounding in my room as the Unos - by a significant margin and agreed by every other listener. Thanks for the advice!!

Not sure what you're referring to when you claim I repeated that mistake. The only mistake I've made (and admitted) was buying the MLs after following advice from yourself and others (and reviews and a showroom demo) without insisting on a home trial before committing. In fact, I'm happy the way things have turned out as the Duos represent an improvement over the Unos.

I appreciate advice and suggestions (otherwise I wouldn't have asked for them) and I'm not blaming anyone for giving advice that turns out as poor, but it's surely wrong for you to adopt the attitude you have.

 

[bonzo75]

Sorry, my advice was Summits over unos any day, but for your particular room, horns... Which is what I quoted in the text above. But horns does not mean any horns, like uno

 

[Gregadd]

To thine own ears be true.

 

[MtnHam]

I continue to be amazed that in discussions like this, where ML speakers continue to be mentioned as the holy grail of electrostatics, there is no mention, let alone acclaim, of Sound Lab Electrostatic speakers. While my opinion will be dismissed as biased, I sincerely believe they offer the best of the genre. I hope Duke will address this.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I continue to be amazed that in discussions like this, where ML speakers continue to be mentioned as the holy grail of electrostatics . . . .

Who mentioned ML speakers as the holy grail of electrostatics?

 

[MtnHam]

Perhaps I exaggerate, but they seem to be the the electrostatic most often mentioned, whereas Sound Labs are almost never acknowlenged.

 

[bonzo75]

Perhaps I exaggerate, but they seem to be the the electrostatic most often mentioned, whereas Sound Labs are almost never acknowlenged.

ML hybrids are much smaller than soundlabs, usually, so much easier to fit in. I am aware that there is a newer soundlabs model that is smaller sized. Also, in stats, the hybrids vs full range debate will continue. All electrostat full rangers have issues in the Midbass, so some would consider hybrids to be the preferred compromise.

 

[MtnHam]

All electrostat full rangers have issues in the Midbass, so some would consider hybrids to be the preferred compromise.

Issues in the Midbass with Sound Labs? Really? Not in my opinion!

 

[bonzo75]

If you did you would have picked a hybrid or apogees as far as planars go. Like I said, you pick your preference of these

 

[Ron Resnick]

Unfortunately, I have never heard SoundLabs. But I have always assumed that if I heard them, I would love them, and I simply would want to add a REL G1 Mk. II six-pack with graduated crossovers to bring the first pair of cones in starting around 200Hz. Basically, I would want to turn them into hybrids.

Would I enjoy such a system more than MartinLogan Neoliths? I do not know.

 

[MtnHam]

Unfortunately, I have never heard SoundLabs. But I have always assumed that if I heard them, I would love them, and I simply would want to add a REL G1 Mk. II six-pack with graduated crossovers to bring the first pair of cones in starting around 200Hz. Basically, I would want to turn them into hybrids.

What I enjoy such a system more than MartinLogan Neoliths? I do not know.

I'm located in SF and would welcome your visit.

 

[cjfrbw]

Soundlabs have always been amongst my top sounds at shows. I usually drop anchor for a while when they are demo'd.

My planar journey and audio peregrinations have taken me elsewhere, but Soundlabs have always been a fave.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

... in stats, the hybrids vs full range debate will continue. All electrostat full rangers have issues in the Midbass, so some would consider hybrids to be the preferred compromise.

Ime the one thing fullrange dipoles very seldom do well is, THUMP. They don't have the impact a good conventional woofer box does, possibly because their output trends towards total cancellation as we go down in frequency. On the other hand they do pitch definition superbly, and the big ones (SoundLabs and big Acoustats, maybe others) have a lot of "body" in the midbass region. So they are magnificent for cello and double-bass, but not so good for techno and kick-drum.

One challenge with a hybrid is that the SPL falls off more slowly with distance from the line-source-approximating panel (3 dB per doubling of distance) than from the point-source woofer (6 dB per doubling of distance). One solution would be to use a line array of woofers, as Martin Logan did in their original Statement. The simpler solution is to have a lot of adjustability, and just accept the fact that the tonal balance will not be optimum if you are too close or too far away.

Of the hybrids I have spent a little time with I liked the Monolith the best, perhaps because its crossover frequency was the lowest. But I haven't heard the Statement or the Neolith.

 

[bonzo75]

Ime the one thing fullrange dipoles very seldom do well is, THUMP. They don't have the impact a good conventional woofer box does, possibly because their output trends towards total cancellation as we go down in frequency. On the other hand they do pitch definition superbly, and the big ones (SoundLabs and big Acoustats, maybe others) have a lot of "body" in the midbass region. So they are magnificent for cello and double-bass, but not so good for techno and kick-drum.

One challenge with a hybrid is that the SPL falls off more slowly with distance from the line-source-approximating panel (3 dB per doubling of distance) than from the point-source woofer (6 dB per doubling of distance). One solution would be to use a line array of woofers, as Martin Logan did in their original Statement. The simpler solution is to have a lot of adjustability, and just accept the fact that the tonal balance will not be optimum if you are too close or too far away.

Of the hybrids I have spent a little time with I liked the Monolith the best, perhaps because its crossover frequency was the lowest. But I haven't heard the Statement or the Neolith.

I love the thump from apogees, fantastic Midbass, but I never heard that in CLX and soundlabs. Though soundlabs I think is quite tough to set up due to room constraints and you have much more experience with that. Ron and I both prefer Logan hybrids to the CLX.

But when I learned that dual woofer front loaded horns do the thump and all Midbass better than Henk's apogee grands I gave up on planars.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

I love the thump from apogees, fantastic Midbass, but I never heard that in CLX and soundlabs. Though soundlabs I think is quite tough to set up due to room constraints and you have much more experience with that. Ron and I both prefer Logan hybrids to the CLX.

I don't specifically recall thump from Apogees, but then I only heard a pair of the big originals once. However I don't doubt you.

Aside from their physical size, SoundLabs are fairly easy to set up. This is in part because they don't have any off-axis glitches that need to be fixed by room treatments; their off-axis energy is essentially identical to their on-axis energy. They can go within an inch of the side walls if necessary. But they do like to have a fair amount of distance behind them, as do all dipoles. I suggest five feet, and more is even better. If that's not feasible, then the backwave can be diffused or re-directed. And if they must go very close to the wall, then the backwave can be absorbed, which is easier than it sounds because the curved panel results in a "focal point" a couple of feet behind the diaphragm, so whatever you do at that focal point (be it aggressive absorption or something else) is highly effective. (The "focal point" is actually a vertical line the same height as the panel.)

But when I learned that dual woofer front loaded horns do the thump and all Midbass better than Henk's apogee grands I gave up on planars.

My "day job" is manufacturing bass guitar speaker cabinets. We don't do horns because they are too bulky. There is a clear correlation between cone area and thump; between motor strength and thump; and between motor design and thump. Some motors simply out-thump their competitors, and there is nothing in the specs which would lead you to that conclusion. It has to do with the motor's unseen internal geometry.

Nothing against midbass horns! I still remember fondly the first time I heard the eXemplars, which I think were based on Altecs. I've also heard undersized midbass horns which had a disappointing lack of thumpage.

 

[bonzo75]

Do we have the same definition on thump? Between 300 to 80 Hz, midbass thump air, tympani?

I do agree dipoles can go to side walls, but need fair amount of distance between them and front to back for me as well. I never liked absorbing the backwave killed the sound imo