Ssssh, is your tube preamp really that quiet?

[DaveyF]

Aren't you using some NOS tubes in your CAT?

Myles, that's correct. Sourced from Uncle Kevin

However, according to Ken Stevens ( who i think knows a thing or two about these things), it is actually impossible to get an all tube phono stage or line stage to have no noise whatsoever. The noise I hear is a low residual noise ( I suspect from the tubes themselves, as it sounds like tube rush)---is your CJ quiet ( no tube rush audible at all? )

Also, this from Ralph ( Atmasphere):

"all active circuitry makes noise. Transformers are passive devices and don't make noise, but there is a price paid for their use as well. IOW there is no free lunch.

IOW there is no curse

I see the words 'dead silent' used a lot. I know that is not the case; as I mentioned before different people have different tolerances for noise.

For those who think their all-tube system is dead silent on phono try this little test. Leave the tonearm on the tonearm rest. Set the source to phono and turn up the volume all the way. If you can then say that even with your ear pressed to the drivers of your loudspeakers that there is no hiss whatsoever then you have a good case for 'dead silent'. I think you will find though that you have no need to press your ear to the drivers- the noise will be quite evident."

I suspect Ralph's test should be an eye/ear opener to all of those who are claiming their system is dead silent.

 

[thedudeabides]

Davey,

I don't have a phono preamp. My ET5 is a line stage.

All I can do is tell you what I hear and don't hear. I really don't care if anyone believes me or not.

I assume I will start to hear some residual noise as the tube ages.

Frankly, this is another example of a "analysis / paralysis" thread, and posts thereof, that often appear on this site.

Have fun gentlemen.

GG

PS: And given my one time experience with Uncle Kevvy of Upscale Audio, I could care less what he thinks.

 

[rockitman]

Myles, that's correct. Sourced from Uncle Kevin

However, according to Ken Stevens ( who i think knows a thing or two about these things), it is actually impossible to get an all tube phono stage or line stage to have no noise whatsoever. The noise I hear is a low residual noise ( I suspect from the tubes themselves, as it sounds like tube rush)---is your CJ quiet ( no tube rush audible at all? )

Also, this from Ralph ( Atmasphere):

"all active circuitry makes noise. Transformers are passive devices and don't make noise, but there is a price paid for their use as well. IOW there is no free lunch.

IOW there is no curse

I see the words 'dead silent' used a lot. I know that is not the case; as I mentioned before different people have different tolerances for noise.

For those who think their all-tube system is dead silent on phono try this little test. Leave the tonearm on the tonearm rest. Set the source to phono and turn up the volume all the way. If you can then say that even with your ear pressed to the drivers of your loudspeakers that there is no hiss whatsoever then you have a good case for 'dead silent'. I think you will find though that you have no need to press your ear to the drivers- the noise will be quite evident."

I suspect Ralph's test should be an eye/ear opener to all of those who are claiming their system is dead silent.

No solid state pre passes your test either. At listening level, you will hear noise too. There is no silent pre.

 

[puroagave]

No solid state pre passes your test either. At listening level, you will hear noise too. There is no silent pre.

but you said your allnic was "dead quiet"

all gear has some 'self noise' SS is by no means immune. I do think the preponderance of 'tube rush' or SS 'hiss' is more related to phono users, especially those with LOMC that use up to 60+ db of gain on top of another 15-25 db of line stage gain.

 

[rockitman]

but you said your allnic was "dead quiet"

all gear has some 'self noise' SS is by no means immune. I do think the preponderance of 'tube rush' or SS 'hiss' is more related to phono users, especially those with LOMC that use up to 60+ db of gain on top of another 15-25 db of line stage gain.

It's just about as quiet as my pass XP25. Dead quiet is a figure of speech. There are no dead quiet components save for a completely passive preamp.

 

[thedudeabides]

but you said your allnic was "dead quiet"

all gear has some 'self noise' SS is by no means immune. I do think the preponderance of 'tube rush' or SS 'hiss' is more related to phono users, especially those with LOMC that use up to 60+ db of gain on top of another 15-25 db of line stage gain.

Who flippin cares if it doesn't impact your ability to enjoy listening to music.

Care to discuss degrees of "dead" and its relative, "real world" impact thereof?

 

[MylesBAstor]

Myles, that's correct. Sourced from Uncle Kevin

However, according to Ken Stevens ( who i think knows a thing or two about these things), it is actually impossible to get an all tube phono stage or line stage to have no noise whatsoever. The noise I hear is a low residual noise ( I suspect from the tubes themselves, as it sounds like tube rush)---is your CJ quiet ( no tube rush audible at all? )

Also, this from Ralph ( Atmasphere):

"all active circuitry makes noise. Transformers are passive devices and don't make noise, but there is a price paid for their use as well. IOW there is no free lunch.

IOW there is no curse

I see the words 'dead silent' used a lot. I know that is not the case; as I mentioned before different people have different tolerances for noise.

For those who think their all-tube system is dead silent on phono try this little test. Leave the tonearm on the tonearm rest. Set the source to phono and turn up the volume all the way. If you can then say that even with your ear pressed to the drivers of your loudspeakers that there is no hiss whatsoever then you have a good case for 'dead silent'. I think you will find though that you have no need to press your ear to the drivers- the noise will be quite evident."

I suspect Ralph's test should be an eye/ear opener to all of those who are claiming their system is dead silent.

I know but that doesn't take away from the fact it's hard to find a quiet NOS tube nor how long NOS tubes will last in modern tube units eg. take audible Illsions or even cj or CAT. Nor have my friends who own or owned CAT preamps agreed with everything Ken said esp. with regards to tubes, etc. YMMV..

In regards to the GAT. Yes when the tubes are new at normal listening levels. And as others have said, I've had SS designs in that weren't as quiet as you would expect also like the early Sutherland units that I reviewed. And perceived will also,depend on the sensitivity of your speakers. Don't try something noisy on horns.

 

[DaveyF]

I know but that doesn't take away from the fact it's hard to find a quiet NOS tube nor how long NOS tubes will last in modern tube units eg. take audible Illsions or even cj or CAT. Nor have my friends who own or owned CAT preamps agreed with everything Ken said esp. with regards to tubes, etc. YMMV..
.

I actually don't agree with everything Ken says about tubes, etc. When I last spoke to Ken, he was NOT in favor of rolling in tubes into his preamp, BUT IME the CAT was taken to a MUCH higher level once I rolled in the NOS tubes.

 

[Bruce B]

I actually don't agree with everything Ken says about tubes, etc. When I last spoke to Ken, he was NOT in favor of rolling in tubes into his preamp, BUT IME the CAT was taken to a MUCH higher level once I rolled in the NOS tubes.

+1... Mine went to another level as well.

 

[DaveyF]

Some interesting points brought up on the other forum from Almarg and Charles1dad:
03-24-14: "Charles1dad
Ralph, What's interesting is that despite the noise you mention, once the music begins these "noisier" devices ironically reveal more musical nuance and low level information. As though the noise floor diminishes with the musical signal transmission."


And this from Almarg:"A couple of factors that may contribute to that in some cases, in addition to the performance characteristics of the particular equipment:

1)I've read a number of times in the past that the presence of very low level high frequency broadband noise can be subjectively perceived as an increase in ambience. That seems credible to me.

2)Just speculating, but perhaps a phenomenon can occur as a result of the addition of very low level high frequency noise to analog signals that is akin to the improvement in digital signal resolution which results from the addition of dither."

Not sure I agree with their theories, BUT interesting nonetheless

 

[LL21]

I suppose one relatively good fact is that most album's noise floor is a lot higher than the system's own. It is not unusual on albums that I can tell when the next track is coming...vs the album is over. The silence of when the album is over is very different than the silence just before or after music.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I actually don't agree with everything Ken says about tubes, etc. When I last spoke to Ken, he was NOT in favor of rolling in tubes into his preamp, BUT IME the CAT was taken to a MUCH higher level once I rolled in the NOS tubes.

Yes that's one thing.

 

[BobM]

I definitely get a minor (extremely minor with my ear to the tweeter) amount of tube rush from my tubed preamp. There is also a wee bit more from my tubed phono stage (so vinyl has a bit more residual tube noise than my digital does).

But I would never trade the beautuiful sound I get from these tubes for a dead quiet solid state. I guess that's the bottom line.

 

[puroagave]

Who flippin cares if it doesn't impact your ability to enjoy listening to music.

Care to discuss degrees of "dead" and its relative, "real world" impact thereof?

GG in your case it matters little because you don't use phono. to me it matters greatly because i don't like noise riding with the signal, if you listen to recordings of unamplified instruments with a lot of low level detail it will be obscured with noisy gear, this is a "real world" problem with phono especially those using LOMC carts.

 

[thedudeabides]

Rob,

Understood.

GG

 

[microstrip]

Myles, that's correct. Sourced from Uncle Kevin

However, according to Ken Stevens ( who i think knows a thing or two about these things), it is actually impossible to get an all tube phono stage or line stage to have no noise whatsoever. The noise I hear is a low residual noise ( I suspect from the tubes themselves, as it sounds like tube rush)---is your CJ quiet ( no tube rush audible at all? )

Also, this from Ralph ( Atmasphere):

"all active circuitry makes noise. Transformers are passive devices and don't make noise, but there is a price paid for their use as well. IOW there is no free lunch.

IOW there is no curse

I see the words 'dead silent' used a lot. I know that is not the case; as I mentioned before different people have different tolerances for noise.

For those who think their all-tube system is dead silent on phono try this little test. Leave the tonearm on the tonearm rest. Set the source to phono and turn up the volume all the way. If you can then say that even with your ear pressed to the drivers of your loudspeakers that there is no hiss whatsoever then you have a good case for 'dead silent'. I think you will find though that you have no need to press your ear to the drivers- the noise will be quite evident."

I suspect Ralph's test should be an eye/ear opener to all of those who are claiming their system is dead silent.

Ralph statement was about ANY type of active circuitry - solid state or tube, although his practical example refers to tubes. Even passive circuits have intrinsic noise - if you have gain enough in the listening chain you can listen to it. The relevant aspect in a system is not the absolute noise, but the signal to noise ratio, and on a different level, the subjective qualities of the noise.

 

[Ki Choi]

I am not a tube preamp/power amp expert and haven't followed Audiogon thread but...

There was no mention of hissing from tube preamp in relationship to power amp's input sensitivity here.

I had an interesting communication with Mike Sanders of Quicksilver Audio recently in regards to overbearing hissing from one of his old high gain Full Function preamp driving a pair of rebuilt McIntosh MC-30s and a pair of Franken-Belle 104dB sensitivity somewhat homemade horn speakers. The MC-30s have .5V input signal sensitivity at full power with its gain pot bypassed. I had no hissing issues with other tube preamp, McIntosh MX-110, with the same MC-30s.

Tube rolling didn't fix the problem on FF preamp and Mike suggested his Horn Monoblocks as a fix for hissing in the system at listening position.

Although I haven't bought the Horn Monos, temporary fix was to use the input pots on MC-30s to turn down the gain to almost 5 to 6V sensitivity (-20dB from .5V input sensitivity) for full power which is just about the same as Quikie Horn Monos' sensitivity.

Good thing is that high sensitive horn setup will let you hear all things including hissing from the preamp or any micro details from the source (or lack there of). Matching the preamps' gain to input sensitivity of the power amp was critical in removing the preamp hissing problem in my case. YMMV.

 

[DaveyF]

Ki, I'm not really talking about noise that can easy be heard from the listening position. That would indicate a problem that is more fundamental than what is in question. In your instance, there was a particular fix that was necessary.
Instead, I am referring to the very low level sound (hash) that is evident in apparently all gear with the volume level at playing level and with no music. Something that one can hear when one's ear is to the speaker, BUT not necessarily further back.

One of the posters on the other forum ( jmcgrogan2) posted this: "To all of those who are saying that their tube preamp is dead quiet, remember, we are not talking about normal use here. The OP is talking about his tube phono stage/line stage preamp, no signal, volume turned up, ear right next to the tweeter.

In my first response I said my all tube preamp was very quiet, however, when turning the volume up and placing my ear within 2 inches of the tweeter, I can hear a hiss with no music playing. Of course this has nothing to do with listening to music, but this is what the topic of the post is about. Not tube line stages, or how it sounds from 8 feet away in between tracks, but 2 inches away with no signal. Try it, you may be surprised to find out that you do indeed have a hiss. Of course the hiss is meaningless, and has no bearing on enjoying music, but tubes do make noise."

That essentially sums up what the issue is. My question, how much of this noise seeps into our perception or enjoyment of the signal and/ or SQ that we can easily hear ?

 

[Atmasphere]

Some interesting points brought up on the other forum from Almarg and Charles1dad:
03-24-14: "Charles1dad
Ralph, What's interesting is that despite the noise you mention, once the music begins these "noisier" devices ironically reveal more musical nuance and low level information. As though the noise floor diminishes with the musical signal transmission."

IMO the tubes are more linear, and despite having greater noise, due to their linearity can also do the least damage to the incoming signal from the cartridge.

There was no mention of hissing from tube preamp in relationship to power amp's input sensitivity here.

I had an interesting communication with Mike Sanders of Quicksilver Audio recently in regards to overbearing hissing from one of his old high gain Full Function preamp driving a pair of rebuilt McIntosh MC-30s and a pair of Franken-Belle 104dB sensitivity somewhat homemade horn speakers. The MC-30s have .5V input signal sensitivity at full power with its gain pot bypassed. I had no hissing issues with other tube preamp, McIntosh MX-110, with the same MC-30s.

Tube rolling didn't fix the problem on FF preamp and Mike suggested his Horn Monoblocks as a fix for hissing in the system at listening position.

Although I haven't bought the Horn Monos, temporary fix was to use the input pots on MC-30s to turn down the gain to almost 5 to 6V sensitivity (-20dB from .5V input sensitivity) for full power which is just about the same as Quikie Horn Monos' sensitivity.

Good thing is that high sensitive horn setup will let you hear all things including hissing from the preamp or any micro details from the source (or lack there of). Matching the preamps' gain to input sensitivity of the power amp was critical in removing the preamp hissing problem in my case. YMMV.

The power amp plays a role of course. If you have the unfortunate combination of high sensitivity speakers and an amplifier with such high gain (in your case, it must be close to 50 db), the result will be a struggle to find quiet tubes and the like. Fortunately you have gain controls on the amp. Something to think about is the fact that you don't need all that gain with such efficient speakers, and with less gain there is also less noise, greater bandwidth and less distortion, which adds up to more musical. In our amps we actually have a jumper plug available that can replace a certain tube in the driver section, resulting in lower gain- very handy when dealing with such speakers!

DaveyF, Noise plays a role in 'how black the background is' (although distortion can have a lot to do with that as well) and it can obscure low level detail. That is why its best to keep it at a minimum. But noise is not the final determining factor in the preamp's ability to make a musical presentation. Put another way, if one were to base a purchase based on noise alone, its unlikely that the result would be the most musical available. This is because linearity plays an important role too- IMO one that is greater than the noise floor. So what we are really looking for is both at the same time. Especially in a phono section, that is one of the areas that designers are always trying to push.

 

[Lee]

My Ref 3 preamp is very quiet.