Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help

[Bobvin]

Uwiik... if you come to Vancouver/Portland I can play for you both Diesis Roma and Alsyvox Botticelli X. But I will only have Pilium electronics (no Kondo) and together we will learn what Bob.east has been loving with all kinds of speakers.

 

[bonzo75]

Personally I would rather own the Diesis over the Anima based on my limited hearing of the Diesis at Munich 2019.

Why? Because I have heard Anima a few times and it has varied so much. From great to dreadful. The absolute worst was with Modwright amps. I think Anima demands a really high quality tube amp setup with the right character to shine.

Diesis with Ongaku is very good. I like OB speakers as a rule and the horn unit blends well. The other amp was a Diesis Evento, so it's not surprising it worked well and I think better but they obviously have the advantage of knowing what the intended target is i.e. their speakers.

If it were me, though, I'd sell the Ongaku and buy Alsyvox Botticelli with an appropriate amp. I know the Ongaku is a lovely piece but the best sounds at Munich came from the Alsyvox room.

Actually TBH I'd get Graz of Apogee to build me something extreme but hey, most won't take the risk.

I have heard Diesis top model properly with kondo ongaku as well as absolare, Vyger TT.

The Anima biamped sounds great at @manisandhers place with a DIY first watt

 

[microstrip]

No they don't. There are not enough discerning hobbyists there, like I mentioned with tannoy kingdom royale, one tannoy fan said this was made for the American market, so high priced and doesn't sound good. It is the hobbyist's responsibility to go searching, and we will state our opinions, which hold the typical cone speakers in very low regard. If forum chit chat makes Peter slowly shift to horns, we have hope for you, micro, Rudolph, Ian and Marty too. I can't see how any classical and jazz fan won't shift over if he hears a few good horns. It is inevitable. For rock fans they have to additionally make sure they listen to a dual woofer FLH like Altec

IMHO discerning hobbyists will move away from horns if they read this forum chit chat ... My audiophile curiosity pushed me to horns several times and every time there were good reasons to move away - the extreme praise for unobtainium hardware and old vintage recordings being a major one.

Current alternative speakers to horns can sound magnificent with digital and modern recordings of classical and jazz, I am very pleased with them. But I would not mind trying a pair of top sounding DIY speakers with the Lamm ML3 until a buyer shows if I did not need to move mountains ...

 

[tima]

IMHO, the US market is not large enough of a horn market to have any dealer carry multiple horn systems for comparisons It never has been this type of market and again, just imho never will.

No offense but isn't that your basic self-fulfilling prophecy? I understand you're talking your book and you have your own perspective on the market - and there is a lot of solid non-horn competition. If you're implying that at the end of the day "America rejects horns" - the market will never be here - then I have no response or evidence otherwise and I guess we'll never know if things never change.

 

[the sound of Tao]

IMHO discerning hobbyists will move away from horns if they read this forum chit chat ... My audiophile curiosity pushed me to horns several times and every time there were good reasons to move away - the extreme praise for unobtainium hardware and old vintage recordings being a major one.

Current alternative speakers to horns can sound magnificent with digital and modern recordings of classical and jazz, I am very pleased with them. But I would not mind trying a pair of top sounding DIY speakers with the Lamm ML3 until a buyer shows if I did not need to move mountains ...

Lucky us non-discerning ones aren’t scared off easy by forum horn chit chat Francisco lol

 

[the sound of Tao]

I would love to see greater penetration with an approach to speaker design that possibly brings us in ways full cycle... and it’s probably short sighted of me to preclude that as happening as well. The SET horn path is definitely the best move I’ve ever made with audio gear and truth be known audiophiles rarely let real world considerations ultimately impact too heavily on the path once it is envisioned... I look at the size of my current speakers as some clear evidence of that lol

 

[Rhapsody]

No offense but isn't that your basic self-fulfilling prophecy? I understand you're talking your book and you have your own perspective on the market - and there is a lot of solid non-horn competition. If you're implying that at the end of the day "America rejects horns" - the market will never be here - then I have no response or evidence otherwise and I guess we'll never know if things never change.

Well, I sold Avantgarde horns for 15 years. I sold 50+ pairs of Avantgarde in the US. Also sold Acapella horns for a few years. My comments are only my perspective but with some experience dealing with a large group of audio purchasers.

If you take 10 audio purchasers, my guess is that for room size, existing electronics that don't match, WAF, just too exotic, you rule out at least 7 of the 10 purchasers if not 8. Then you have two or three left. Out of the few possible remaining horn candidates, let's say three possible horn guys, one or even two "only" buy used gear. They will go to a dealer to listen and then buy off the net. Happened to me routinely for years, comes with the territory.

This leaves maybe one possible customer that "might" buy a pair of horns from a dealer. IF HE HAS THE AVAILABLE $$$.

I am NOT saying "this is the way it is", this just happens to be my personal observation of selling and talking to customers for 15 years, day in and day out trying to sell horns. Your experience or others experience may be totally different.

 

[tima]

There are not enough discerning hobbyists there, [US]

You're on a very slippery path with that sort of remark and I discourage you from following it.

Otherwise the US market generally does not fear competition. If as Graham suggests the horn business is a niche market with a product having enough foibles that it will remain such, then so be it. Don't expect many hobbyists will look to create a market if manufacturers are not willing to bet on themselves. You certainly have no skin in the game.

 

[tima]

If you take 10 audio purchasers, my guess is that for room size, existing electronics that don't match, WAF, just too exotic, you rule out at least 7 of the 10 purchasers if not 8. Then you have two or three left. Out of the few possible remaining horn candidates, let's say three possible horn guys, one or even two "only" buy used gear. They will go to a dealer to listen and then buy off the net. Happened to me routinely for years, comes with the territory.

My understanding is that at your store in NYC a person can listen to Diesis and Magico side-by-side. It is great that you offer the opportunity to compare and I suspect there very few other B&M where similar comparison is available. Given that, I hear you saying maybe maybe one in ten will buy a horn speaker and there are many reasons why. So horns are a niche market? And little can change that? Is that a fair accounting?

 

[Rhapsody]

My understanding is that at your store in NYC a person can listen to Diesis and Magico side-by-side. It is great that you offer the opportunity to compare and I suspect there very few other B&M where similar comparison is available. Given that, I hear you saying maybe maybe one in ten will buy a horn speaker and there are many reasons why. So horns are a niche market? And little can change that? Is that a fair accounting?

First of all. I LOVE HORNS Always have, always will.

YES, I believe that horns, for so many reasons will always be a niche market especially in the US. I have always noted the similarities of the people that I sold horns to. They were almost renegades in a sense. They knew what they wanted and didn't listen to others. They heard horns, loved them and bought them.

I would say most people that buy speakers buy them for various reasons - They got a deal, resale value, the reviews said they were great, the forums said they were great, and several other similar reasons vs. hearing and buying because of the sound regardless of all of the hurdles that might come their way in their purchase decision.

My experience as stated is the "renegade" to the norm speaker buyer is few and far between. Most speaker buyers are going to buy cabinet speakers. Then the small percentage that deviate from the box speaker norm gets split into panels (Maggies, Alsyvox etc), Electrostatics, omni (MBL, Bayz). Then you even get horn hybrids vs true full range horns, which are REALLY a niche.

I don't see how horns are going to overtake or become the common choice with all of the speaker options that are available.

Again, just all my perspective, nothing more than that.

Btw, the fun part of Rhapsody and the 5 new Rhapsody Listening Rooms that are opening around the country soon is that you won't be able to just compare Magico with Diesis, but also Alsyvox and Bayz. Sealed cabinets, Horn/hbrids, Full range ribbons and Omni speakers.

 

[tima]

I would say most people that buy speakers buy them for various reasons - They got a deal, resale value, the reviews said they were great, the forums said they were great, and several other similar reasons vs. hearing and buying because of the sound regardless of all of the hurdles that might come their way in their purchase decision.

Then perhaps what we have here at WBF in these sort of threads is the core of the hard core. Maybe we should have black leather jackets with a horn (French?) 0n the back.

 

[Rhapsody]

Then perhaps what we have here at WBF in these sort of threads is the core of the hard core. Maybe we should have black leather jackets with a horn (French?) 0n the back.

I'll wear one

 

[Solypsa]

I don't want to derail this thread too much, but I have noticed a few contributing factors against horns, since I am in the USA I will say 'in the states'. Some common held beliefs that I see as false ( or at least partially false ):

'horns are honky and tubes are tweaky'

'big speakers are so 20th century; these days tiny speakers do it all without drawback'

So often clients or friends pretend to ask my advice but really make presumptions in the form of statements like 'this system sounds poor. And I dont want to see the speakers anymore. Little tiny speakers will sound better, right?'

I remain cheerful and wait for the person who can hear different and thats when its fun again...

 

[Uwiik]

I love this forum... folks can have differing opinion here and everyone acts like an adult and choose to end the debate with a joke instead of mud slinging! Love it!!

 

[the sound of Tao]

Then perhaps what we have here at WBF in these sort of threads is the core of the hard core. Maybe we should have black leather jackets with a horn (French?) 0n the back.

I’m in. Would go well with my tattoos... just sayin.

 

[Uwiik]

My take on the American Audio. For some reason Audio is the only hobby where American are conservative. My main business is catering/exporting hobby stuffs for the American and European market, tropical fish both freshwater and saltwater to be exact. In my line of business, the American are very very brave and adventurous compared to the European counterparts. Usually it takes the European 2-3 years to catch up with what the American are doing. HOWEVER, in Audio hobby, I sense that the American are a lot more conservative. I feel that most American products are very conservative in approach with relatively safe “house sound” that mostly leaning on the warm-ish side. Unlike the European and Japanese that is continuously pushing the envelope towards definition and realism with all its associated risks such as being bright, harsh, analytical. Back in 2001, I found that most EU/Japanese brands to be bright and harsh and I always found my safe haven in American brand when I get tired of the old school European brands. Today things are different, the European and Japanese has found the secret sauce in controling harshness and brightness and here we are now in an Audio market that mostly controlled by European.

ALL IMHO. Peace!!

 

[Uwiik]

P

Personally I would rather own the Diesis over the Anima based on my limited hearing of the Diesis at Munich 2019.

Why? Because I have heard Anima a few times and it has varied so much. From great to dreadful. The absolute worst was with Modwright amps. I think Anima demands a really high quality tube amp setup with the right character to shine.

Diesis with Ongaku is very good. I like OB speakers as a rule and the horn unit blends well. The other amp was a Diesis Evento, so it's not surprising it worked well and I think better but they obviously have the advantage of knowing what the intended target is i.e. their speakers.

If it were me, though, I'd sell the Ongaku and buy Alsyvox Botticelli with an appropriate amp. I know the Ongaku is a lovely piece but the best sounds at Munich came from the Alsyvox room.

Actually TBH I'd get Graz of Apogee to build me something extreme but hey, most won't take the risk.

Please don’t say that... LOL! The title of the thread is “what speaker for my Ongaku”, not “what amp for my speaker”..... That thought has crossed my mind but I just spent 150K++ and definitely won’t be selling my less than 1 month old Ongaku....it’s my holy grail amp (mentally) since long ago and finally I have it so I won’t be selling it. I’d rather go conservative and just buy AN-E or Devore than selling my Kondo but that wasn’t my target. I wanted something different (or Renegade if you prefer) to pair with my Kondo. Be it single driver, field coil, horns, OB or planar. Right now I am focusing on horns because horns has intrigued me since long and I REALLY want something different. I started my Audio hobby since 1994 with my HK Citation II and I never own long term any other speakers but box speakers, I just want something different.

 

[Uwiik]

Have you considered Zingali Acoustics?

Yes I did but zero information to be had. Do you have a suggestion? Back in 2001 I heard the wooo hahhh and all the rave about Zingali from my local AD, never owned it though. Please tell me more about Zingali.

 

[Uwiik]

Uwiik... if you come to Vancouver/Portland I can play for you both Diesis Roma and Alsyvox Botticelli X. But I will only have Pilium electronics (no Kondo) and together we will learn what Bob.east has been loving with all kinds of speakers.

Invitation accepted. I definitely have to go to Vancouver when rule allows, it’s a must, not a question. Thanks so much for the kind offer!! BTW, if I give you commitment to buy from you if I like the sound, would you try to provide Ongaku for audition? Off course I’ll pay shipping both way.

 

[cal3713]

Here's my take on the US & horns. Americans' first introduction to specialty, performance-centered products are cars. It's a car/truck culture and it's standard fare for children (stereotypically boys) to spend a lot of time fantasizing about the vehicles they'll eventually own. Once people do get their first vehicle, many start to get into audio, but the choices are still controlled by the US car culture because that's where high school and college kids are putting their audio dollars. Both of those industries (in America) have a huge focus on power and muscle over delicate finesse.

When everyone grows up on kilowatt amplifiers and trunks full of subwoofers, it's a huge paradigm shift to talk about 2w amplifiers once you've finally got a house to put a system in. Not only do you have to be introduced to an entirely new way to think about sound reproduction, but you also have to accept that everything you were taught when putting in that new car stereo that you absolutely loved was wrong.