speaker hook up wire ( between crossover and drivers )

Cellcbern

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A few points...

- Wire will corrode if exposed to air. You need a dielectric that will prevent this and you should protect the terminations as well.

- Duelund wire is very colored. I've used the silver and copper, and it's impossible to predict results because it's so far from neutral. Even Jeff Day admits that Duelund wire works well in some applications and not others. I got tired of sending out cables that didn't work for so many people. My UPOCC cables are much more neutral and thus much more predictable as far as how they will work in a system, they will produce a much more immersive and 3-D soundstage and more distinct timbre vs Duelund. Also, vintage WE wire is much better than Duelund if you really want that vintage tinned-copper sound. I understand why some like it, but it's a tweak that will result in much lower resolution vs other alternatives.

- Mogami copper wire is also very warm sounding but not quite as colored as Duelund. Both are poor choices IMO. (Sorry to those who like it, no offense intended). This kind of wire is a great way to permanently handicap your system.

- UPOCC silver with teflon insulation is the most neutral wire available, period. Nothing is even close. It shows the most resolution, the most clarity, the most difference between recordings and the most distinct timbre. It doesn't round-over leading edges not does it exaggerate them. Some find it too "dry" sounding depending on the system so I often use gold, ribbon shaped conductors and/or heavier gauges to avoid that. This does add coloration but it's subtle and unobtrusive vs other options. It's like a scalpel while Duelund oiled wire is like a sledgehammer.

- For woofers silver plated copper with teflon is really hard to beat, it's much less $$$ vs pure UPOCC silver and since you don't have to worry about highs you won't have to worry about the fact it's less refined vs UPOCC silver. If the woofer plays over ~500 Hz then I'd look at pure UPOCC silver though as it's getting into the mids, especially with a xo of more gradual slope.

- Inside a speaker cab is a high vibration environment and you should take this into account. Ptp runs of solid-core wire without securing the wire or adding damping is not going to work out very well...

- Run internal wire in a noise-canceling geometry wherever possible. IDK why, but many folks feel like actual cables are no longer necessary once you get inside the speaker and they just use single runs of wire everywhere with no regard for seemingly anything. IMO a twisted pair is a minimum requirement and single runs of signal or ground should be minimized and kept as short as possible.

- Use good binding posts and solder the wire to the drivers or use Furutech pure copper push-connectors. Steel push-connectors as commonly used sound horrible. I'd recommend WBT silver binding posts and spades if you don't mind the high prices. Furutech has some great options too like FT-865R at lower prices and their FT-211R spades are excellent.

- I offer any of my cables as custom internal cable. Including the high-efficiency cables for mids and highs... :) I can also sell any wire I use.
Never heard/read the Duelund tinned copper wire described as "colored" before. Not sure but it sounds like you are referring to the earlier Duelund wire varieties, or did you offer cables made of the tinned copper wire that customers weren't satisfied with? Here is what Jeff Day said about the Duelund tinned copper wire. This is from the attachment I posted above:

"......What did I hear? Well, compared to the Western Electric WE16GA, I heard all of the considerable goodness of well run-in WE16GA, but the Duelund DCA16GA had an overall richer presentation, it sounded smoother, more spacious, had more intense tone color, it was more transparent (and at the same time more natural sounding!), with images that had more presence, as well as a superb portrayal of tempos, melodies, rhythm, and dynamics. Those are all attributes that push my buttons, so I was very excited about what I was hearing.
Essentially, I heard everything that I really like about the vintage Western Electric WE16GA, but everything was better with the Duelund DCA16GA. Everything, both musically & sonically."

If that's a description of coloration I'll take it over neutral every day of the week.
 
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cjf

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With all due respect ( intended sincerely ) why did you come to this conclusion?
Basically trial and error. I've not found a solid core wire that I enjoyed listening to, and I've owned a few. Its been years since I've tried them but if memory serves me correctly I found the soundstage to be lacking compared to equally priced stranded wire. I believe another complaint was that the highs where on the harsh side when I used solid core wire but again, its been years.

Of course I cant claim to have heard every available solid core wire so this has just been my experience to date. Perhaps their are high dollar solid core wires that would mop the floor with the stranded wire I've used and currently use (Kubala-Sosna Elation) but i've personally not heard one to date. And to be clear, I'm talking about speaker wire, internal or external not crossover wiring.

If you go down the Coax rabbit hole I found this one to check all the boxes I was looking for in such a cable. I have a spool of it but have yet to implement it anywhere. Maybe some day.

Belden 9913F7
 
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Solypsa

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Thanx for your reply
 

Cellcbern

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Took my Metro 001's back to Bache Audio yesterday for upgrades (new woofers and tweeters, crossover mod, complete rewiring). They will use stranded Duelund tinned copper wire for internal hookup - 12 ga. for the woofers and 16 ga. for the wideband driver. 22 ga. solid core silver Stage III Concepts hookup wire will be used for the tweeters.
 
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Solypsa

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Will be curious to hear your impression when finished!
( especially on the topic of integration of drivers as different gauge and materials of wire are being used. )
 
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DaveC

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Will be curious to hear your impression when finished!
( especially on the topic of integration of drivers as different gauge and materials of wire are being used. )

The integration of mid and tweeter is super-important and I would highly recommend using the exact same wire for both.
 

Cellcbern

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Will be curious to hear your impression when finished!
( especially on the topic of integration of drivers as different gauge and materials of wire are being used. )
There are different schools of thought on this as you would expect. One, which has been promoted by Martin Collums of HiFi News (UK) among others maintains that solid core wire sounds better on tweeters; stranded wire on midrange and bass drivers.
Will be curious to hear your impression when finished!
( especially on the topic of integration of drivers as different gauge and materials of wire are being used. )
I will post my experiences. This is not a DIY project - it is the speaker designer/manufacturer making upgrades. The speakers come stock with different gauges of wire for different drivers. If the silver wire on the tweeters doesn't sound great he will switch to 20 ga. Dueland tinned copper. There are different schools of thought on internal speaker wiring. One school asserts that solid core wire sounds better on tweeters while stranded wire sounds better on the midrange/woofer. Audio reviewer and Monitor Audio co-founder Martin Collums has advanced this view. Note that my Bache speakers are not a conventional design. A wideband driver handles 500hz to 10khz, augmented by a woofer below 500hz and an air motion transformer tweeter above 10khz. The woofer is being upgraded from Tang Band to Eton, and the tweeter to Fostex FT96-EX2 (made in Japan version).
 

DaveC

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Stranded wire adds grain. Some like it at lower frequencies but grain is grain.
 

Solypsa

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Stranded wire adds grain. Some like it at lower frequencies but grain is grain.
In your 1st post it seemed that you were cautioning against solid core, this next post ( quoted ) seems like a caution against stranded. Could you elaborate on your preference ( solid vs stranded )?
 
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Solypsa

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The woofer is being upgraded from Tang Band to Eton, and the tweeter to Fostex FT96-EX2 (made in Japan version).
Sounds like a pretty substantial upgrade!
 

Kingrex

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I threw out the Deulund and Western Electric that came with my speakers. That bad. They also came with silver costed mill spec 12 stranded. Also quite bad.

In the end my horns ended up with a 14 awg high purity copper wire. No name. Given to me by a guy tying to make speaker wire.

Woofers have the Verstar silver/copper foil to the positive and Inakustik to the negative. I had tried the verstar to the horn. Way to hot. Bad balance with the woofers.

The Inakustik is interesting. I bought a bunch of in wall speaker wire. I stripped the outer case. I then took the inner strands that are good clean copper, solid jacketed, maybe 18 awg. I twisted 3 together. An inexpensive way to experiment. Cost me maybe $100. Come over and listen. My house is open to friends again.
Rex
 

Cellcbern

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Took my Metro 001's back to Bache Audio yesterday for upgrades (new woofers and tweeters, crossover mod, complete rewiring). They will use stranded Duelund tinned copper wire for internal hookup - 12 ga. for the woofers and 16 ga. for the wideband driver. 22 ga. solid core silver Stage III Concepts hookup wire will be used for the tweeters.
For those of you who are not familiar with it here (below) is a link to information about the Stage III Concepts hookup wire. It may be the world's best solid core silver hookup wire. It is the only one I know of with almost a complete air dielectric, and is easily the best I've heard. When my Pathos TT was upgraded the 2nd time all of the stock silver signal wire was replaced with this (and all of the stock copper wire with the Dueland tinned copper) - with fantastic results:

 
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Cellcbern

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It is. I was able to compare examples of the speakers with the original and upgraded drivers side-by-side.
A more detailed description of my speaker upgrade project (with photos) can be found at the WBF thread:
Remaking My Bache Audio Metro 001's

The rewiring ended up being Duelund DCA tinned copper-12 ga. for the woofers and to the binding posts, and 16 ga. for the 4"wideband drivers, with 22 ga. Stage III Concepts Aerostrand (silver, air dielectric) used on the Fostex tweeters. The prototype that Greg Belman built used OCC copper wiring throughout. I haven't gotten back up to Brooklyn to pick them up yet but Belmann reports that the Dueland/Stage III version is the better sounding of the two, and credits the wire.
 
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Zeotrope

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Not sure what it is about the tinned copper Duelund wire but at 130 hours - BOOM! It goes from sounding like Sh~t! to sounding incredible. Detailed but cohesive, precise and wide sound stage in width and depth… amazing!
But anyone who doesn’t put in the time (130-150 hours), you haven’t heard what this wire can do. And you can’t really use burn in devices as it doesn’t react well to “artificial” break-in.
It’s also cheap! I’ve spent more on single a wood isolation base.
 

Maril555

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Not sure what it is about the tinned copper Duelund wire but at 130 hours - BOOM! It goes from sounding like Sh~t! to sounding incredible. Detailed but cohesive, precise and wide sound stage in width and depth… amazing!
But anyone who doesn’t put in the time (130-150 hours), you haven’t heard what this wire can do. And you can’t really use burn in devices as it doesn’t react well to “artificial” break-in.
It’s also cheap! I’ve spent more on single a wood isolation base.
Concur
What gauge art you using?
 

Zeotrope

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Concur
What gauge art you using?
I am using 12 gauge from the amp to the crossover, 16 within the crossover and 12 from the crossover to each driver. I had 16 from the crossover to each driver initially but I slightly prefer the 12. It’s difficult to compare back to back; even after 150 hours the wire needs some time to settle after being moved around.
 
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Cellcbern

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I am using 12 gauge from the amp to the crossover, 16 within the crossover and 12 from the crossover to each driver. I had 16 from the crossover to each driver initially but I slightly prefer the 12. It’s difficult to compare back to back; even after 150 hours the wire needs some time to settle after being moved around.
DCA 12ga to woofer and binding posts and DCA 16ga to wide band driver bested UP-OCC copper jn my upgraded Bache speakers and mated well with the 22 ga Stage Three Concepts single crystal silver "Aerostrand" wire to the Fostex FT96-EX2 super tweeters. Took more than 200 hours to fully burn in.
 
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