Something wicked this way comes... (2020 speaker teaser content)

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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#41
VERY INTERESTING!!

Okay, part of what's happening MIGHT be this: The relatively high resonant frequency of the Radian coaxial helps minimize cone excursions from signals well below the enclosure's tuning frequency, which in turn helps to preserve the inherent clarity of the coaxial compression driver.

An alternative coaxial format is to use a separate horn for the compression driver. I have yet to find one with this format which did not have a nasty dip in the frequency response in the upper midrange region from the cone's output reflecting off the back of the horn. And imo it's not so much the resulting measurable frequency response dip which degrades the sound, but the delayed arrival of that distorted reflection. So I prefer the format Radian uses, and they do it very well.
Interesting because what I have seen in most coax drivers without a dedicated horn is quite a bit more ripple in the response of the tweeter.
 
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Duke LeJeune

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Jul 22, 2013
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#42
I've wondered if the low frequency bounce the higher ones in a coaxial, because they do on fullrange drivers.
Yes they do, but my impression is that it's not as bad as in a fullrange driver. In a fullrange all of the high frequency output is modulated by the low frequency output. In a coaxial, tweeter output which comes in contact with the walls of the cone is modulated, but I don't know whether that directly affects tweeter output which misses the walls of the cone. I wouldn't think so; or at most, not very much.

Interesting because what I have seen in most coax drivers without a dedicated horn is quite a bit more ripple in the response of the tweeter.
Yup, it's a trade-off. And I'm not sure that my general preference for horn-less coaxials would hold up to a really well-designed coaxial with a dedicated horn.

But with a dedicated horn you juggle adequate horn size versus "breathing room" for the woofer. And the round-over around the mouth of a horn also matters, which adds to the size requirement for a "good" horn. So a horn big enough to work well will maximally reflect/diffract the woofer's output up near the crossover region, while a horn small enough to not mess with the woofer won't have good pattern control down into the crossover region.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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#43
Yes they do, but my impression is that it's not as bad as in a fullrange driver. In a fullrange all of the high frequency output is modulated by the low frequency output. In a coaxial, tweeter output which comes in contact with the walls of the cone is modulated, but I don't know whether that directly affects tweeter output which misses the walls of the cone. I wouldn't think so; or at most, not very much.



Yup, it's a trade-off. And I'm not sure that my general preference for horn-less coaxials would hold up to a really well-designed coaxial with a dedicated horn.

But with a dedicated horn you juggle adequate horn size versus "breathing room" for the woofer. And the round-over around the mouth of a horn also matters, which adds to the size requirement for a "good" horn. So a horn big enough to work well will maximally reflect/diffract the woofer's output up near the crossover region, while a horn small enough to not mess with the woofer won't have good pattern control down into the crossover region.
I guess with one you will affect the tweeter and with the other you impact the midrange. Which is more detrimental to what we hear?? The most famous coax of all time, the ALTEC 604, obviously had a dedicated horn. They can sound as good as anything out there. Other famous ones, like Tannoys, did not have a dedicated horn and some swear by those. Until I heard the Radians is was not convinced by the non-dedicated horn types. Those are just damn good.
 
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Duke LeJeune

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#44
I guess with one you will affect the tweeter and with the other you impact the midrange. Which is more detrimental to what we hear?? The most famous coax of all time, the ALTEC 604, obviously had a dedicated horn. They can sound as good as anything out there.
You're absolutely right, it's a tradeoff.

[blasphemy]I have heard at least three different loudspeakers with either the Altec 604 or a modern version thereof, and to me the horn coloration was distractingly obvious. [/blasphemy]

Other famous ones, like Tannoys, did not have a dedicated horn and some swear by those.
[more blasphemy] I wanted to add a high-efficiency speaker to my lineup to complement my SoundLab electrostats, so I eagerly sought out several different models of big Tannoys to listen to. I went into it with the expectation of becoming a dealer, based on their reputation. Unfortunately to my ears they lacked clarity, especially as the volume level went up. [/more]

I did not seek out the less expensive Tannoys which have a separate woofer because at the time I hadn't figured out that that might make a worthwhile improvement. But since then I have heard several hornless coaxials with separate woofers which sounded magnificent.

I have heard Mark Seaton's speakers twice. Mark uses a prosound coaxial (B&C maybe?) with separate woofers handling the low end. They sounded superb on both occasions.

Also Clayton Shaw (Spatial Audio) uses a Radian coaxial in a dipole system with a separate woofer. He went so far as to design a custom housing for the backside of the Radian which allows the compression driver's diaphragm to radiate backwards as well as forwards. Superb.

Danny Ritchie (GR Research) also makes a dipole system with a big prosound coaxial modified so that the compression driver radiates to the rear. I think he did that before Clayton. Again, in my opinion, superb.

And then of course there's the great Andrew Jones, whose more modest-efficiency custom coaxials also use a separate woofer.

So I THINK hornless coaxial + separate woofer = a winning format. It's what I would do anyway.
 
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morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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#45
You're absolutely right, it's a tradeoff.

[blasphemy]I have heard at least three different loudspeakers with either the Altec 604 or a modern version thereof, and to me the horn coloration was distractingly obvious. [/blasphemy]



[more blasphemy] I wanted to add a high-efficiency speaker to my lineup to complement my SoundLab electrostats, so I eagerly sought out several different models of big Tannoys to listen to. I went into it with the expectation of becoming a dealer, based on their reputation. Unfortunately to my ears they lacked clarity, especially as the volume level went up. [/more]

I did not seek out the less expensive Tannoys which have a separate woofer because at the time I hadn't figured out that that might make a worthwhile improvement. But since then I have heard several hornless coaxials with separate woofers which sounded magnificent.

I have heard Mark Seaton's speakers twice. Mark uses a prosound coaxial (B&C maybe?) with separate woofers handling the low end. They sounded superb on both occasions.

Also Clayton Shaw (Spatial Audio) uses a Radian coaxial in a dipole system with a separate woofer. He went so far as to design a custom housing for the backside of the Radian which allows the compression driver's diaphragm to radiate backwards as well as forwards. Superb.

Danny Ritchie (GR Research) also makes a dipole system with a prosound coaxial modified to radiate to the rear. I think he did it before Clayton. Again, in my opinion, superb.

And then of course there's the great Andrew Jones, whose more modest-efficiency custom coaxials also use a separate woofer.

So I THINK hornless coaxial + separate woofer = a winning format. It's what I would do anyway.
All valuable experience. I have heard 804s twice as well as Urei’s once. Once was fantastic, once was colored and the Urei’s were pretty great as well. Dynamikks don’t really sound colored in an obvious way...for sure there is some (like all speakers) but this classic “horn “ coloration cliche.
 
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sbnx

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Mar 28, 2017
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#46
Is there a picture of this speaker?
 

Duke LeJeune

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Jul 22, 2013
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#47
Is there a picture of this speaker?
Not yet. I finally got the custom tooling for the horns only two days ago, so we are probably still two or three months away from a photo shoot.

Hence the word "teaser" in the thread title.

Actually when I started this thread, January 1st 2020, by late June we were expecting to have shown at either Axpona or T.H.E. Show, as well as at Lone Star Audio Fest (which is about forty-five miles from me). So we DID NOT intend to be running the "teaser" thing for this long!
 
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bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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#48
The tannoys and Altec 604 are very different in sound, not one better than the other. Those who like the tannoy do so for its point source coherence and its earthy sound. Duke is right when he says they lack clarity, but with tannoy that doesn't matter to those who like it. And as Duke was looking to represent, the modern tannoys are just not good enough.

The Altec 604 are quicker than the tannoy in the upper mids and can be run with lower watts. Many 604 users move to boxes with small format Altec for mids and 15 inch for mid bass below. I heard one open baffle 604 which was quite nice and pleasant, especially at under 3000 quid. The stock 604 was supposed to be quite shouty and users usually mod the crossovers. With tannoy many mod crossovers as well. But suffice to say, both with Altec and vintage tannoys set ups sound quite different due to varying DIY styles and amps used

I haven't heard the Radian coaxial (was planning to visit Germany before the lockdown to do so) but based on what I regularly hear with the universum, the Radian sound is in different from both Altec and tannoy, it is more like TAD with focus on clarity, resolution, transparency.
 
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