Should i surrender? Perlisten sub

[rhyno]

could someone who owns the D15 / D212 / D215 chime in on wall power requirements? i did see in the owners manual that each sub would take 20a fuse as i recall on 115v, or basically it needs dedicated circuits (else you may end up having lots of trips to the breaker box).

tia!

 

[Stereophonic]

No way. At least in my system with D15s...

 

[VPN]

could someone who owns the D15 / D212 / D215 chime in on wall power requirements? i did see in the owners manual that each sub would take 20a fuse as i recall on 115v, or basically it needs dedicated circuits (else you may end up having lots of trips to the breaker box).

tia!

I don't know what are the requirements. However, in my system I have one dedicated 220V 20A circuit for the two D215s. Never had any problem.

 

[LL21]

Thank you!

Now my CH Precision M10 is driving only the two 8", two 5.5" and tweeter of each Dunlavy, so that extra power added a bit more detail, a bit more control, and maybe dynamics in midbass/mids/highs.

Regarding the crossover of the Perlisten, I have kept at second order and have been experimenting with the crossover frequency between 70hz and 82hz and with the level. Currently at 82hz.

Regarding the sound where the Perlisten play, where the Dunlavy dual 15" used to play and now the Perlisten, the dynamics is the same as it was before, since it was already very dynamic. What I hear now is more detail, better instrument timbre/texture at the lowest frequencies. Probably much less distortion, but I have not measured.

Since the Dunlavy already has two 15" each, it is quite extended in the lower frequences (besides high frequencies), so I purchased the two Perlisten mostly to complement the Rockport Orion that is not as extended in the lowest frequencies.

Thank you! Very helpful feedback.

 

[rhyno]

No way. At least in my system with D15s...

could you kindly comment on the power delivery for the D15s vs the rest of your rig? one shared circuit or multiple 120v lines, etc....i live in an apartment and have my entire rig on one circuit (removes ground noise, but limited current delivery).
tia

 

[sbo6]

could someone who owns the D15 / D212 / D215 chime in on wall power requirements? i did see in the owners manual that each sub would take 20a fuse as i recall on 115v, or basically it needs dedicated circuits (else you may end up having lots of trips to the breaker box).

tia!

I have 1 D215S on a dedicated 20A line and obviously no problems. However, I also tried it on a 20A line shared with my system (amps excluded) and no problem there either. My guess is - you'd need to be continually pushing the sub to have any issue with the breaker popping, plus, I believe the Perlisten subs have a microprocessor than gages wall current availability versus sub output and limits sub output to avoid damage and higher distortion. Really quite an innovative and clever design no one else is employing that I'm aware of.

 

[sbo6]

I have received my two Perlisten D215s. I am using them with Echole Limited Edition mk2 power cords and Echole Limited Edition mk2 XLR interconnects, and a set of Revopods under each. The revopods made a relevant positive difference.

I am currently using the two Perlisten with my heavily modded Dunlavy SC-VI (picture). The two 15" woofers of the Dunlavy play below 75hz, with a second order crossover. I disconnected the two 15" woofers of each Dunlavy from their external Duelund crossover and I am using de Perlisten D215s instead. The integration is quite good and they disappear quite well, same as the Dunlavy. The lowest frequencies are now more detailed, while still very fast and extended. Quite happy with the Perlisten.

I purchased a pair of Rockport Orion, which should arrive early next semester, so I will probably cross the Perlisten very low, maybe at 30Hz, to complement the 13" bass driver of the Orion. I have heard the Orion with and without subwoofers, and in my system/room the Rockport Orion, for my preferences, sound much better with a top subwoofer.

You might want to think about actively crossing over and rolling off your Dunlavys at ~50Hz and rolling in the Perl to over below. I'm doing something similar with my setup and am impressed at the benefit in mid - bass, bass and sub mass impact, realism and clarity.

 

[VPN]

You might want to think about actively crossing over and rolling off your Dunlavys at ~50Hz and rolling in the Perl to over below. I'm doing something similar with my setup and am impressed at the benefit in mid - bass, bass and sub mass impact, realism and clarity.

After a lot of experimentation the Perlisten subs are now quite well integrated.

Edit: I may have forgot to mention, but I disconnected the two 15” of each Dunlavy from the Duelund crossover, and I am crossing the two Perlisten d215s at 72hz. More detail and better timbre now below 70hz. Mids and highs also sound better because with the two 15” disconnected it is an easier load for the CH M10.

I have purchased a pair of Rockport Orion to replace the modded Dunlavy SC-VI, they should arrive by October. I am thinking about crossing the Perlisten at 30hz, which is the lowest setting and using no external crossover.

To cross also the Orions,, the challenge would be to find a crossover that is of the highest quality, that would not hurt the sound of the Orions.

 

[LL21]

You might want to think about actively crossing over and rolling off your Dunlavys at ~50Hz and rolling in the Perl to over below. I'm doing something similar with my setup and am impressed at the benefit in mid - bass, bass and sub mass impact, realism and clarity.

Fascinating! I am curious as to what changes you might be hearing in your mains when they are rolled off at 50hz.

Do they open up a lot and/or have meaningfully more headroom, freedom of expression or possibly greater macro and micro dynamic expression? Both scalability as well as nuance, detailing?

I have often wondered what would happen with a really great pair of subs + set up if we crossed our XLFs over at 45-55hz instead of the traditional run full range or even crossover at 28-38hz.

 

[Schuess]

I fell ass-backwards into a really effective integration of my pair of Perlisten R212s subwoofers. Out of boredom, I experimented using spare Vandersteen M5-HPB first-order high-pass crossovers implemented between preamp and power amp and the first-order (6 dB per octave / 80 Hz cutoff) crossover setting for each Perlisten sub. I’m pretty darn thrilled with the result. The gentle slope / attenuation of the lows works great with my system.

 

[sbo6]

After a lot of experimentation the Perlisten subs are now quite well integrated.

Edit: I may have forgot to mention, but I disconnected the two 15” of each Dunlavy from the Duelund crossover, and I am crossing the two Perlisten d215s at 72hz. More detail and better timbre now below 70hz. Mids and highs also sound better because with the two 15” disconnected it is an easier load for the CH M10.

I have purchased a pair of Rockport Orion to replace the modded Dunlavy SC-VI, they should arrive by October. I am thinking about crossing the Perlisten at 30hz, which is the lowest setting and using no external crossover.

To cross also the Orions,, the challenge would be to find a crossover that is of the highest quality, that would not hurt the sound of the Orions.

Congrats on your soon - to - be new Rockports, great speakers1

Also, I was in the same conundrum - what XO that doesn't diminish quality. I went for the Wilson ActiveXO and could hear no sonic degradation. Also, you might want to not just listen, but measure to see where you have the biggest LF room mode challenges and select a XO point that allows best flexibility via the Perlistens DEQ. My D215S are crossed over at 72 Hz and my speaker roll off also at about 70Hz, which one would think would result in a peak at 70Hz, however room modes dictate otherwise.

 

[sbo6]

Fascinating! I am curious as to what changes you might be hearing in your mains when they are rolled off at 50hz.

Do they open up a lot and/or have meaningfully more headroom, freedom of expression or possibly greater macro and micro dynamic expression? Both scalability as well as nuance, detailing?

I have often wondered what would happen with a really great pair of subs + set up if we crossed our XLFs over at 45-55hz instead of the traditional run full range or even crossover at 28-38hz.

I was very worried and quite skeptical that it would all work out in terms of sonics, phase alignment, etc, but it did. To be honest, I am I big fan of REW and measured quite a bit to find the best compromise of my room modes and the best point to roll off my mains.

My goal was to cross the subs >60Hz due to 2 nasty room modes at ~30Hz and ~60Hz, but not over 80Hz due to hearing localization issues and also to balance the LF frequency range across the Vivids woofers and the Perlistens. It worked out very well at ~70Hz each allowing me to adjust 30Hz and 60Hz peaks via Perls DEQ while covering ~2 octaves while the Vivids woofers still cover 1.6 octaves. Also, the Vivids woofers' impedance is low and the reduction of LF coverage reduces the amps' load, another benefit. So now as a true 5 - way the system sounds bigger, cleaner, bolder, and more linear in terms of bass.

A side benefit is removing 2 subs (I had 4: JLA Fathoms) freeing up side and back wall space, so the room looks less cluttered. Still some minor tweaking to do, but I'm very happy.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Me like woofage. More woofage --> good!

 

[LL21]

I was very worried and quite skeptical that it would all work out in terms of sonics, phase alignment, etc, but it did. To be honest, I am I big fan of REW and measured quite a bit to find the best compromise of my room modes and the best point to roll off my mains.

My goal was to cross the subs >60Hz due to 2 nasty room modes at ~30Hz and ~60Hz, but not over 80Hz due to hearing localization issues and also to balance the LF frequency range across the Vivids woofers and the Perlistens.... So now as a true 5 - way the system sounds bigger, cleaner, bolder, and more linear in terms of bass....

Thank you! That is super helpful. I would also likely use the Wilson Crossover if I went for this idea.

Do you perceive any bigger, cleaner, bolder in the lower mids or upper? Do you notice any increased detail or freedom of expression in the lower mids or upper bass due to the mains being 'freed up' from low-bass duty?

This is really fascinating. Thanks for any continued insights!

 

[Ron Resnick]

I was very worried and quite skeptical that it would all work out in terms of sonics, phase alignment, etc, but it did.

Whether or not they're actually is phase alignment and whether or not there is a measurable group delay is irrelevant if you happen not to be sensitive to it. Some audiophiles are sensitive to phase alignment or group delay or both. Either I don't know what to listen for or I'm not sensitive to it, because I don't hear any problems playing with my panel speakers and the woofer towers.

I am sensitive to frequency. (I think we all are sensitive to frequency.) I used REW to see whether in phase or out of phase provides a smoother low frequency response.

A side benefit is removing 2 subs (I had 4: JLA Fathoms) freeing up side and back wall space, so the room looks less cluttered.

Forgive me if I missed this analysis above, but two D215S replaced four Fathoms? So you reduced overall woofage?

 

[LL21]

Whether or not they're actually is phase alignment and whether or not there is a measurable group delay is irrelevant if you happen not to be sensitive to it. Some audiophiles are sensitive to phase alignment or group delay or both. Either I don't know what to listen for or I'm not sensitive to it, because I don't hear any problems playing with my panel speakers and the woofer towers.

I am sensitive to frequency. (I think we all are sensitive to frequency.) I used REW to see whether in phase or out of phase provides a smoother low frequency response.



Forgive me if I missed this analysis above, but two D215S replaced four Fathoms? So you reduced overall woofage?

I am with you on this one. Whether it is 'not sensitive' or 'not a priority', with no system being perfect, it is a question of priorities. For some it is coherence...I was just PM'ing a well regarded member here saying that for me while I can here the 'wholeness' of good panels in comparison with multi-driver speakers (ie, coherence), I dont really mind either way. I have other priorities...midrange tonal purity, foundational bass, a foundational subterranean bass to give the sense of venue and to root the instruments physically in the room, and to a degree, macro and micro dynamic expression (not necessarily detail in its purest sense, but in priority, the dynamic shadings). Then comes detail and then coherence.

It is not right nor wrong...it is about priorities. There are so many technical things 'wrong' with trying to get Sonus Faber Guarneris to work with a Velodyne DD18 subwoofer...and I did it and would not have gone without. And I knew where the issues were in discontinuity...but I much preferred the 'well' of power and depth that the system had with the Velodyne dialed in as well as could be...than without.

Many would abhor such a system, decrying its lack of continuity of presentation, etc, etc. But for me, it gave me the magic of a beautifully designed speaker and the bass foundation of an extremely well designed DSP/servo sub.

 

[VPN]

Congrats on your soon - to - be new Rockports, great speakers1

Also, I was in the same conundrum - what XO that doesn't diminish quality. I went for the Wilson ActiveXO and could hear no sonic degradation. Also, you might want to not just listen, but measure to see where you have the biggest LF room mode challenges and select a XO point that allows best flexibility via the Perlistens DEQ. My D215S are crossed over at 72 Hz and my speaker roll off also at about 70Hz, which one would think would result in a peak at 70Hz, however room modes dictate otherwise.

Another crossover that seems to be very high quality is the CSPORT ACN200. However, it has only two frequencies below 100hz to select: 40hz and 63hz.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Another crossover that seems to be very high quality is the CSPORT ACN200. However, it has only two frequencies below 100hz to select: 40hz and 63hz.

This is the crossover I used with the tri-amped Clarisys Auditorium set-up in Spokane. I like this crossover a lot.

Philosophically I am happy to give up some flexibility in return for remaining in the analog domain.

 

[sbo6]

Thank you! That is super helpful. I would also likely use the Wilson Crossover if I went for this idea.

Do you perceive any bigger, cleaner, bolder in the lower mids or upper? Do you notice any increased detail or freedom of expression in the lower mids or upper bass due to the mains being 'freed up' from low-bass duty?

This is really fascinating. Thanks for any continued insights!

Of course, we all share our experiences with each other.

I have a peak at ~120 - 230Hz which results in a bit of warmth, so difficult to assess any difference in lower mids, I hear and measure none.

I notice more effortlessness and impact in the overall bass range and to be honest across the spectrum (maybe it's the bass driving a perceived benefit across the FR?). Note: this is with an almost identical frequency response versus before using the Active XO. My guess is - this is from a significantly lighter load on the amps. If you look at my Spirits' impedance curve, the front 3 drivers (@220Hz - 20Khz) are very easy to drive, but the 2 11" woofers dip to ~4ohms at 220Hz, 85Hz and lowest at 3.5ohms at ~19Hz (minimal effect I'd surmise with little content this low). So crossing over at ~70Hz eliminates much of the higher current demand and provides that big, effortless, dynamic benefit which is what I think we're both saying.

The key is the right crossover points with the right rolloff and optimum phase integration. To me, you can't do this without measuring.

 

[LL21]

Of course, we all share our experiences with each other.

I have a peak at ~120 - 230Hz which results in a bit of warmth, so difficult to assess any difference in lower mids, I hear and measure none.

I notice more effortlessness and impact in the overall bass range and to be honest across the spectrum (maybe it's the bass driving a perceived benefit across the FR?). Note: this is with an almost identical frequency response versus before using the Active XO. My guess is - this is from a significantly lighter load on the amps. If you look at my Spirits' impedance curve, the front 3 drivers (@220Hz - 20Khz) are very easy to drive, but the 2 11" woofers dip to ~4ohms at 220Hz, 85Hz and lowest at 3.5ohms at ~19Hz (minimal effect I'd surmise with little content this low). So crossing over at ~70Hz eliminates much of the higher current demand and provides that big, effortless, dynamic benefit which is what I think we're both saying.

The key is the right crossover points with the right rolloff and optimum phase integration. To me, you can't do this without measuring.

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Thank you! very very interesting. I bold one comment on the sound you make which is what I have experienced (to a degree) and which I have definitely read is part of what happens when extraordinarily high quality subwoofer set up is achieved.

I suppose I just have to get around to doing it when the product, the budget, the professionals and the time are all aligned...more to come.

Meanwhile, have you heard anything about the new Perlisten 8si? The 8-woofer 4' tall/9" thin powered sub? They call it a new flagship...but to be honest, it is not clear to me where the D215 is still not the flagship?