SET amp owners thread

[mtemur]

I should not trust audiophiles experience.

Well you're in the wrong place cause WBF is full of audiophiles.

Conversely I learn a lot here, from audiophiles.

One example is most high feedback high power solidstate amplifiers can drive bass woofers easily but the bass is not proper so proper bass is different to drive. Yes drive is necessary for proper bass but it is not all the story.

I appreciate your willingness to explain, but I feel that your response assumes I’m unfamiliar with basic concepts of amplifier design. I’m here to learn, but I would appreciate it if you could kindly reread my posts to better understand where I’m coming from and never treat me like I'm novice. Because it's insulting.

 

[Amir]

Well you're in the wrong place cause WBF is full of audiophiles.

Conversely I learn a lot here, from audiophiles.


I appreciate your willingness to explain, but I feel that your response assumes I’m unfamiliar with basic concepts of amplifier design. I’m here to learn, but I would appreciate it if you could kindly reread my posts to better understand where I’m coming from and never treat me like I'm novice. Because it's insulting.

Nothing is insulting, No war …

I read about some of your listening experience/judgments and I think your judgment is not trusted for me. like magazine reviewers there are some audiophiles (like Kedar @bonzo) that listened to many components but I never trusted their judgments. I wrote about my reasons in my Audio Critique Topic.

proper judging is rare

Audio Critique

I would like to share my idea about Right/Trusted Audio Critique in the High End Audio because Most Magazines need a better understanding of Audio Reviewing. I ask this question because me (when I was young) and my friends have spent many many times/efforts/money according to (and trusting)...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[bonzo75]

I wrote about my reasons in my Audio Critique Topic.

proper judging is rare

Audio Critique

I would like to share my idea about Right/Trusted Audio Critique in the High End Audio because Most Magazines need a better understanding of Audio Reviewing. I ask this question because me (when I was young) and my friends have spent many many times/efforts/money according to (and trusting)...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Thanks. Like you, we believe what we read online from people we have never met. We will soon start quoting you from your website

 

[Al M.]

Is the Karma Exquisite "appropriate sensitivity and appropriate impedance"?

Hehe...NO. Hell no.

 

[morricab]

Hehe...NO. Hell no.

I remember Marshall Nack, from Positive Feedback getting good results from his Kharma speakers (Céramique model) with various SET amps. So, I think “It depends “ is a more appropriate response than “he’ll no”.

 

[PeterA]

I remember Marshall Nack, from Positive Feedback getting good results from his Kharma speakers (Céramique model) with various SET amps. So, I think “It depends “ is a more appropriate response than “he’ll no”.

I heard David’s new turntable with Lamm ML3, LL1 and LP1. The speakers were very big Karma. I think it was the Midi Grand Exquisite. I’m not familiar with the various models, but they were very large and a few years old and quite attractive. The listening experience was superb on most material. It only ran out of a little bit of steam at very demanding large scale music. There are videos of this system in the absolute nothing turntable thread. So I agree, “hell no” is just not right.

Personally, I would want speakers that are at least 8 ohm and 100 dB for the ML2. My speakers are 16 ohm and 105. There might be some exceptions, but I’m not familiar with such current model speakers that are available today.

 

[tima]

I expect better from you as a forum owner, reviewer, dealer, and member of the industry.

not a reviewer

 

[PeterA]

I respect that you disagree, but I think "disciple" is exactly the accurate term with respect to David's closest customers (including you, Tim, Amir) who have adopted David's audio philosophies and maxims in their entirety, and for whom David has been an enormously valuable mentor, and who then go out and disseminate David's philosophies and maxims. I have no idea why you were sensitive to the term, but "disciple" is exactly the correct characterization.

Just out of curiosity is there a single David audio philosophy or maxim with which you do not agree and have not adopted?

I don’t quite understand this Ron. On the one hand you claim I have adopted David’s philosophy “entirely”, and on the other hand, you’re asking me out of curiosity which ones I do not agree with, and I have not adopted? This reads like a contradiction to me.

I can tell you that we have different opinions about some cartridges and I’ve actually had some interesting discussions about set up where we do not necessarily agree and have learned from each other. This is not the place to get into specifics.

Finally while I don't articulate it exactly the way it is described in David's maxim I have posted many times about the importance to me of a "low sonic center of gravity" rising from the bass through the lower midrange. I believe this is where much of the music "lives." Without getting the range of about 20 Hz to about 400 Hz correct it is difficult for the system to sound natural.

I agree that your articulation seems to be different. But I think it’s more than that. From my various discussions with David on the topic of bass reproduction, his description and notion of correct bass, or getting the bass “right”, I have learned that he is not talking about “center of gravity” as you do. It’s a different topic. What you are describing seems to be about balance. When David discusses proper bass reproduction and presentation, it is about much more than just that. Proper balance is necessary, but not sufficient for superior bass presentation.

 

[PeterA]

not a reviewer

OK, Tim. I once described him as a reviewer and pointed out potential conflicts with his other industry involvements. Ron did not dispute the characterization but denied any conflicts. Absent further comments from Ron, I will not refer to him as a reviewer in the future. .

 

[hopkins]

I myself share the natural sound philosophy.

Whatever that philosophy is, it seems to lead to very different systems (and sound?).

 

[microstrip]

I remember Marshall Nack, from Positive Feedback getting good results from his Kharma speakers (Céramique model) with various SET amps. So, I think “It depends “ is a more appropriate response than “he’ll no”.

Except being a Kharma, there is nothing in common between the old Ceramique (around 2005) and the specific Kharma Exquisite model I was recommended for the Lamm ML3 - modern Kharma speakers are medium efficiency, 4 ohm speakers. The Ceramique was 8 ohm.

 

[Al M.]

Except being a Kharma, there is nothing in common between the old Ceramique (around 2005) and the specific Kharma Exquisite model I was recommended for the Lamm ML3 - modern Kharma speakers are medium efficiency, 4 ohm speakers. The Ceramique was 8 ohm.

The sensitivity of the Ceramique is medium as well, at 89 dB/W/m, while the nominal impedance of 8 Ohm indeed makes the difference:

Kharma Ceramique CE-2.0 loudspeaker Specifications

Sidebar 1: Specifications

www.stereophile.com

 

[PeterA]

Whatever that philosophy is, it seems to lead to very different systems (and sound?).

Ron has explained that he does not subscribe to all of David’s natural sound philosophy, but he has not explained where, how, or why he deviates. Or which ones he follows. It seems he did not take David’s advice on the room or with power delivery. Cartridge set up and mixing amplifiers are two more area of difference. And then there is the choice of gear. With such differences, I would expect a different presentation.

It is clear from the systems that I have actually heard and from various descriptions and supporting videos, that natural sound systems share specific characteristics and have similar presentations.

 

[Al M.]

Here is Ralph (Atmasphere) on the combination of modern Kharma and Lamm SET, citing the low impedance of 4 Ohm as a problem (post #626):

Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

those are pretty much what David Karmeli was using with Lamm ML2 SET's at CES in 2002. the Kharma Ceramiques 3.2 which was 89db, 8 ohm. similar speaker load to the new Kharma's. 91db, 4 ohm almost equal 89db, 8 ohm. it was a good match. and popular. at that time i had Kharma Exquisite 1D's with...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[hopkins]

Ron has explained that he does not subscribe to all of David’s natural sound philosophy, but he has not explained where, how, or why he deviates. Or which ones he follows. It seems he did not take David’s advice on the room or with power delivery. Cartridge set up and mixing amplifiers are two more area of difference. And then there is the choice of gear.

It is clear from the systems that I have actually heard and from various descriptions and supporting videos, that natural sound systems share specific characteristics and have similar presentations.

So in your opinion, Ron's system is not a "natural sound system"?

 

[PeterA]

So in your opinion, Ron's system is not a "natural sound system"?

You stated that you don’t know what natural sound means. You then claimed that the philosophy that you don’t understand leads to different sounding systems.

I simply pointed out that Ron deviates from some of the stuff that David Karmeli talks about. Ron himself admitted as much.

Perhaps you should discuss with Ron his system over on his system thread.

 

[hopkins]

You stated that you don’t know what natural sound means.

Yes, you are the expert, which is why I am asking you about this.

You then claimed that the philosophy that you don’t understand leads to different sounding systems.

No. I just repeated what Ron said, that he subscribes to the philosophy. It is a fact that his system is different.

I simply pointed out that Ron deviates from some of the stuff that David Karmeli talks about. Ron himself admitted as much.

Perhaps you should discuss with Ron his system over on his system thread.

I am guessing that Ron deviates in terms of gear, but he does claim, once again, to subscribe to the philosophy. Natural sound is natural sound - it is either natural or not. You can't be at 10% or 50%...

Since you are the expert, and also stated that "It is clear from the systems that I have actually heard and from various descriptions and supporting videos, that natural sound systems share specific characteristics and have similar presentations" I am curious to know whether you think Ron has a "natural sound system". But it seems that you are chickening out?

 

[hopkins]

Looking at your thread, who in their right mind would disagree with those attributes of what you call "natural sound"?

"No aspect of the sound calls attention to itself
The sound is balanced
The system sound is absent from the presentation
Wide listening window: able to enjoy most/all genres of music
Portrays the character of each recording, nuanced venue information
Allows a wide range of volume adjustment for what is most appropriate for a particular recording and still be engaged
Superior information retrieval
Natural resolution, not “detail”
Able to scale up and down, large to small
No “sound”, only music
Room is energized and music is “alive”
Enjoyable outside of listening sweet spot
Images are stable as listener moves around the room
Draws listener into the music
Relaxing, zero fatigue
Open, effortless, and dynamic sound
No need to crank the volume
No added or artificial extension
No analysis of the sound into bits and pieces, music experienced as a whole
Result is beauty and emotion."

So I can see how Ron would subscribe to all that. Anyone would.

 

[Argonaut]

“Natural Sound” - Stating The Blindingly Obvious (™)

 

[dcc]

I already have SET on my secondary system. I have now swapped to SET on my main system as well with the Phasemation MA-5000 which should be delivered in a few weeks time. 2 X 45 Watts which are plenty enough for my efficient Stenheim Reference Ultime Two.



For the time being, I have their little brothers MA-2000 on loan. Together with the CSPort GM70PA, they are on my short list for replacing the LM-805 IA in my secondary system.