Saskia model two

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Fantastic Mike. Just to be sure, NVS is on the Tana, Saskia has nothing dedicated under it?
thanks Marc.

and yes; right now the Saskia sits directly on top of the granite/wood top shelf of the Adona rack.....naked.

the Saskia has it's own built in decoupling (Win described it as like a stillpoint) footers.
 
Jun 13, 2013
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Mike, my rim/idler has built in mag lev feet, but still benefits hugely from 95kg Stacore mass loading/pneumatics under it. And performance jumped again w another 55kg of inert slate under that. Incl my slate plinth tt, thats 175kg of slate in total. I would say LOL, but have you ever moved a large 125kg pallet up a tight spiral staircase?

You're already starting w 115kg of nested slate plinth in yr Saskia, and apparently Stillpoints-like footers, so have a natural advantage on isolation before you've tried anything else (otherwise Saskia wouldn't be closely vying w Tana'd NVS on Day One). But I cannot imagine Tana or the like not boosting things further. Unless 115kg mass loaded slate plus "Stillpoints" is really all that's needed on an inert Adona rack. Indeed, maybe Win's footers precludes need for Tana, Stacore etc. Maybe you'll benefit most from Adona plus Daiza. And be done.
 
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PeterA

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I think it would be interesting to see how the lights on the active indicators respond to each of Mike's turntables spinning without music playing. It might show how internally generated vibrations either remain in the table or exit out through the footers. Just a guess and I don't pretend to know what the implications are.
 
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I'm not convinced active ie Tana is the way to go w Saskia. The idler wheel will be generating direct contact-driven torque ie a physical moment of inertia. I can really see Tana "fighting" this by constant jiggling. Either the 115kg mass loaded slate plinth of Saskia plus proprietary footers, on inert rack (as Mike has at present), will be all that's needed, or additional passive isolation in form of Daiza shelf or Stacore platform, to add the proverbial cherry on the cake.
 
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Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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I think it would be interesting to see how the lights on the active indicators respond to each of Mike's turntables spinning without music playing. It might show how internally generated vibrations either remain in the table or exit out through the footers. Just a guess and I don't pretend to know what the implications are.
the scan lines on the screen of the Tana active shelf readout are completely stationary with the NVS spinning but no music....there is no feedback from vibrations being read.
 
Jun 13, 2013
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I do not get that at all. The NVS (platter) is moving. Herzan is designed to detect mvt and react to it.
 

PeterA

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I do not get that at all. The NVS (platter) is moving. Herzan is designed to detect mvt and react to it.
That is a great result Mike but I am a little bit perplexed also because the active unit is supposed to detect all motion from the top plate coming down. And it is extremely sensitive. I guess the MPS just cause it’s probably to job isolating that motion and not transmitting it through the feet to the platform

It also makes me curios about the second platter on the Kronos spinning in the opposite direction to combat and cancel motion that exists in one platter turntables.

Interesting stuff which I simply do not understand.
 
Jun 13, 2013
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It's amazing how good stuff sounds despite itself Lol.

Put a Kronos on Herzan. Does the platform react to the top platter going one way? Or the lower one going the other?

Herzan nervous breakdown?
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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I do not get that at all. The NVS (platter) is moving. Herzan is designed to detect mvt and react to it.
the NVS platter/motor/plinth effectively decouples any motor or platter resonance sufficiently (not perfectly) from the shelf it's sitting on. if you think about it any high level direct drive must solve this issue. whereas belts can have motor resonance and the belt (plus flywheel) decouple it from the platter/plinth. many belt drive tt's are not a good match for active because of this issue. which is not to say which approach sounds better. i'm only speaking to what design priorities each type drive system must overcome to then be more ideal for active.
 
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Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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That is a great result Mike but I am a little bit perplexed also because the active unit is supposed to detect all motion from the top plate coming down. And it is extremely sensitive. I guess the MPS just cause it’s probably to job isolating that motion and not transmitting it through the feet to the platform

It also makes me curios about the second platter on the Kronos spinning in the opposite direction to combat and cancel motion that exists in one platter turntables.

Interesting stuff which I simply do not understand.
no.

the Herzan (Taiko Tana) only senses what it senses. the resonance of the motor/platter moving must travel through the plinth and the footer of the legs to the active device. if that resonance is sufficiently dampened then the active device will not sense it. it has no idea the platter is turning, it only knows what it feels from the legs.

remember; my Tana active includes a 10mm top layer of Panzerholtz attached to the Herzan top plate, then a thin rubber layer, and then the Taiko Daiza shelf. so these layers likely contribute to the result. it's not just a stock Herzan with an Aluminum top plate.

don't minimize that the Stanford Phd's that run the robotics company in Redwood City that designed the NVS might just have known what they were doing.
 
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Likes: PeterA
Jun 13, 2013
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Mike, I'm hugely impressed constant spinning NVS platter didn't feed thru at all to the Tana/Herzan.

It would be fascinating as Peter suggests to compare the Saskia in this respect too.

The only drawback being Saskia Stillpoints-style passive footers not mating/conflicting w active Tana/Herzan.
 

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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no.

the Herzan (Taiko Tana) only senses what it senses. the resonance of the motor/platter moving must travel through the plinth and the footer of the legs to the active device. if that resonance is sufficiently dampened then the active device will not sense it. it has no idea the platter is turning, it only knows what it feels from the legs.

remember; my Tana active includes a 10mm top layer of Panzerholtz attached to the Herzan top plate, then a thin rubber layer, and then the Taiko Daiza shelf. so these layers likely contribute to the result. it's not just a stock Herzan with an Aluminum top plate.

don't minimize that the Stanford Phd's that run the robotics company in Redwood City that designed the NVS might just have known what they were doing.
Thanks Mike. I must not have been clear. I understand that the Taiko Tana's active sensors only detect what they can detect. If they detect nothing, then there are no vibrations large enough making it down to be detectable. Yes, those engineers sound as though they know what they are doing. Again, that is a great result. Congratulations.
 
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Feb 25, 2012
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Dear Marc and Tang,

sorry for the delay in my responses here. honestly i've had a football weekend (i'm a serious American style College and NFL junkie) plus listening visitors on Saturday (jazdoc + Joel Durand) afternoon. also, trying to get my brain around the vdh Master Signature.......which i've set aside for now to come back to later.





on Saturday we did switch the Durand Tosca + Anna D. back to the NVS from the Saskia (where it's been for a few weeks) and listened. up till now the Anna D. was only on the Saskia. now it's on the NVS. i can make some provisional comments about things as they look right now.

the presentations of the Saskia and NVS/Tana are different. but not night and day different. more that each has characteristics/attributes where they really excell, but even where they fall slightly short of the other they are still very good. no warts are exposed.

the NVS has a larger soundstage, more expansive. the Saskia is a little more focused, relatively compact. jazdoc liked that images are more correctly sized on the Saskia, it's something important to him. image location is excellent on both, a little more image density and weight with the Saskia, a bit more soaring every molecule in the room energized and carried away sense with the NVS. both these tt's have very low noise floors, but surprisingly the Saskia seems slightly lower. i need much more time to see if that holds true. but this is no one trick idler pony.

both plenty of energy. a bit more weight and flow from the Saskia, but better top to bottom coherence and complete frequency response from the NVS. it's more complete and organized. if you never heard the NVS you would consider the Saskia a big music champ; but then the NVS just takes it farther. it goes and goes.

did i say that the Saskia is a flow champ?......it absolutely is! sustains are fantastic/special/otherworldly! the NVS is good in this area but there is a difference.

cello growl is a different animal on each. more granular on the NVS, more dense and physical on the Saskia. i love them both.

piano's, guitar, horns, and vocals are great on each. maybe for small music the Saskia might get deeper into these things than the NVS. that added dollop of density taking things up a notch in emotional connection.

delicacy comes across differently on each. the NVS more airy, the Saskia more tonal weight, and more energy projecting.

Bass is really excellent on both; the Saskia a bit more weight, but the NVS maybe more agile. i need much more time with this issue. and the Tana shelf under the NVS likely makes a big difference here. could it help the Saskia? at some point i need to try it.

it's important to note that where i say that the density, weight or tone of the Saskia is better, it's not by much. the NVS has plenty of weight, density and tonal richness.....but the Saskia is just a little better. at least that is how it sounds to my ears in this system.

i'm feeling that both are essential to my listening at this point. i need to get the Durand Telos arm board back from Win so i can install the Telos Sapphire on the Saskia and run that while i spend more time back on the NVS with the Tosca/Anna D.

i hear no limitations to what the Saskia can do. it's an all around super sounding tt that can play classical and big stuff, have plenty of inner detail and texture, nothing rounded or blunted. and maybe the Tana active could take it further?

i think what is also really apparent is that while there is a great buzz about the sexy/iconic/mysterious Saskia idler that is well earned, the NVS is really a fantastic all around performer that kicks some serious tt ass......especially combined with the Taiko Tana active isolation. i'd bet plenty of people would have a tough time 'blind' I.D.ing which tt they were listening to with most music. and at the top of the tt heap that is how it should be. and these are right up there.

and.........there are horses for courses. will every system have a complimentary environment for every tt? or....as one's system and tastes evolve, will a tt be able to keep up? you graduate from pop, to jazz, to small classical, to big classical......will the tt deliver? the NVS will, and has.....in spades.
Mike
great Insight into good things to come
Lots of new variables!
Would love to hear you inferences of the Tosca/ Anna Diamond on either platforms in comparison to telos/Anna Diamond
Dear Marc and Tang,

sorry for the delay in my responses here. honestly i've had a football weekend (i'm a serious American style College and NFL junkie) plus listening visitors on Saturday (jazdoc + Joel Durand) afternoon. also, trying to get my brain around the vdh Master Signature.......which i've set aside for now to come back to later.





on Saturday we did switch the Durand Tosca + Anna D. back to the NVS from the Saskia (where it's been for a few weeks) and listened. up till now the Anna D. was only on the Saskia. now it's on the NVS. i can make some provisional comments about things as they look right now.

the presentations of the Saskia and NVS/Tana are different. but not night and day different. more that each has characteristics/attributes where they really excell, but even where they fall slightly short of the other they are still very good. no warts are exposed.

the NVS has a larger soundstage, more expansive. the Saskia is a little more focused, relatively compact. jazdoc liked that images are more correctly sized on the Saskia, it's something important to him. image location is excellent on both, a little more image density and weight with the Saskia, a bit more soaring every molecule in the room energized and carried away sense with the NVS. both these tt's have very low noise floors, but surprisingly the Saskia seems slightly lower. i need much more time to see if that holds true. but this is no one trick idler pony.

both plenty of energy. a bit more weight and flow from the Saskia, but better top to bottom coherence and complete frequency response from the NVS. it's more complete and organized. if you never heard the NVS you would consider the Saskia a big music champ; but then the NVS just takes it farther. it goes and goes.

did i say that the Saskia is a flow champ?......it absolutely is! sustains are fantastic/special/otherworldly! the NVS is good in this area but there is a difference.

cello growl is a different animal on each. more granular on the NVS, more dense and physical on the Saskia. i love them both.

piano's, guitar, horns, and vocals are great on each. maybe for small music the Saskia might get deeper into these things than the NVS. that added dollop of density taking things up a notch in emotional connection.

delicacy comes across differently on each. the NVS more airy, the Saskia more tonal weight, and more energy projecting.

Bass is really excellent on both; the Saskia a bit more weight, but the NVS maybe more agile. i need much more time with this issue. and the Tana shelf under the NVS likely makes a big difference here. could it help the Saskia? at some point i need to try it.

it's important to note that where i say that the density, weight or tone of the Saskia is better, it's not by much. the NVS has plenty of weight, density and tonal richness.....but the Saskia is just a little better. at least that is how it sounds to my ears in this system.

i'm feeling that both are essential to my listening at this point. i need to get the Durand Telos arm board back from Win so i can install the Telos Sapphire on the Saskia and run that while i spend more time back on the NVS with the Tosca/Anna D.

i hear no limitations to what the Saskia can do. it's an all around super sounding tt that can play classical and big stuff, have plenty of inner detail and texture, nothing rounded or blunted. and maybe the Tana active could take it further?

i think what is also really apparent is that while there is a great buzz about the sexy/iconic/mysterious Saskia idler that is well earned, the NVS is really a fantastic all around performer that kicks some serious tt ass......especially combined with the Taiko Tana active isolation. i'd bet plenty of people would have a tough time 'blind' I.D.ing which tt they were listening to with most music. and at the top of the tt heap that is how it should be. and these are right up there.

and.........there are horses for courses. will every system have a complimentary environment for every tt? or....as one's system and tastes evolve, will a tt be able to keep up? you graduate from pop, to jazz, to small classical, to big classical......will the tt deliver? the NVS will, and has.....in spades.
Mike
great Insight into good things to come
Lots of new variables!
Would love to hear you inferences of the your Tosca/ Anna Diamond on either platforms in comparison to telos/Anna Diamond
Does the Tosca contribute too ?
Cheers
 
Last edited:
Jan 12, 2018
44
28
18
Copenhagen
I think it would be interesting to see how the lights on the active indicators respond to each of Mike's turntables spinning without music playing. It might show how internally generated vibrations either remain in the table or exit out through the footers. Just a guess and I don't pretend to know what the implications are.
Id like to see the responses with tables spining with and without needle in groove and with and without volume up...

Jesper
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
5,624
495
83
North Shore of Boston
Id like to see the responses with tables spining with and without needle in groove and with and without volume up...

Jesper
Yes, and if you play music through the digital system then you could observe whether or not sound from the speakers is detectable on the surface of the unit to isolate that from any vibrations occurring from the LP source. Those active platforms are very interesting devices and extremely sensitive. Rockitman did a demonstration for me once in his system.
 
Likes: jespera

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