Ron’s New System

[the sound of Tao]

I agree. It’s a little bit like always wanting the musician to be in your room in front of you rather than you imagining sitting in the space where the musician was playing his music when he was recorded.

Yes, and I think these are both potential choices that can lead us then to very different gear preferences and our own personal validation about what is best… I prefer a summative realism (dare I say rightness) which is possibly more of a recreation rather than a reimagination as (for me) the ultimate arbiter both in terms of the spirit of the music and its performance and also then in the context of the recording.

 

[rob]

But you have to try a lot of tubes to find something better...good luck. You realize this painfully when you sell Klyne and look for something better. My Bitter personal experience.
P.S
Maybe a Vacuumstate RTP3D

Vaccume State RTP3D (Alan stock tubes) was probably the best preamp I've had in my system. Resolution, true realistic detail, dynamics, full bandwidth, bass slam, impact, speed and detail etc, with no harshness, listen for hours, life like vocals, acoustic instruments etc.
On good recordings was easy to hear a vocalist take an inward breath before singing next line also could hear what a singers lips and tongue were doing on some recordings, all this without false tipped up HF balance. Kind of like the first time i heard a Quad ESL set up properly for the first time.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think it’s the notion of maximising fluidity as a goal

Hello Tao,

I am puzzled why you are repeating this, because I reiterated that maximizing liquidity is not my goal.

 

[rob]

Thank you. Aries Cerat, ARC, VAC, Hovland, Trafomatic -- only a tube preamp gives me the liquidity and space and "holography" on vocals that I care about on a single issue voter basis.


Thank you for the thought. But that's just the point. I don't want musicality that's good among transistor preamps. I want to maximize musicality, which for me means tubes.



Yes, people choose solid-state to rock the house. People choose solid-state for maximizing resolution. People choose solid-state for maximizing low frequency dynamics.

People don't choose solid-state to maximize liquidity of vocals.

"Yes, people choose solid-state to rock the house. People choose solid-state for maximizing resolution. People choose solid-state for maximizing low frequency dynamics.
People don't choose solid-state to maximize liquidity of vocals."

As a generalization i see where you are coming from.
Though.
I'm not certain on this, I have definitely heard tube amps that can rock the house on the right speakers, probably not SET with decent SPL in lower bass, but i have experienced this with some tubes designs.
Also i have personally found some SS gear lacking in maximum resolution compared with competently well engineered and designed tube gear.
Solid state gear with boosted lower-mid-high treble,and or recessed mids can give this impression, but it is not true resolution and detail, more fatiguing and difficult to listen too for long periods with a smile on your dial (grin on ya chin)
IME some (quite a lot) of SS equipment tends to sound muscular but slow, dull and bright at the same time. Ticks many of the audiophile boxes, but unnatural and difficult to listen to for long periods at realistic volumes. I tend to notice a sort of tension in the body that almost leads to relief once turning the system off after listening to a few tracks.
Being ADHD and dyslexic i find it hard to put into words, but when you get it right you tend to look forward to sitting down and listening to lots of types of music for long periods. Get it wrong and although you may be able to convince yourself that you own a state of the art wizz bang mega $$ audiophile approved system you won't want to listen for long periods and may be forever on that merry go round, upgradeitis on the latest cable, footer, MkII version, equipment swapping, uprgrading?? etc etc.

With regards to maximizing liquidity in vocals i would generally agree, if that's your thing, tubes do well here. I have heard a couple of solid state amps do it, not liquidity in terms of a deliberate coloration, but definitely a reach out and touch the singer in the room, almost like a kind of, sense their presence in the room, breathy, life like quality.It's like, at that point in time you are listening to a human being as silly as that sounds.! It's almost like a suspension of disbelief in the moment. And quite addictive once you have experienced it your own lounge room.

Intrestingly, on a few tracks i experienced this recently at a Hi-Fi show. It was on Alsyvox ribbons, the overall tone of the speakers was ever so slightly lean for my personal taste and maybe just a slight sheeny? quality to the music. But, for a fussy listemer they were impressive, real world bass and dynamics plus that reach out and touch the performer in the room vocal transparencey. I tend to find this quite rare on cone/dome drivers in a box. Usually that sort of realism i have experienced more often with good horns or ribbon/planar ESL designs.

 

[tima]

Ohh yes, i never so much ringemitter sanken transistors in one amp 60 ampere output current no problem one of that can deliever theoretically, 15 amps, 32 pieces are installed.
Most of the time, amplifiers like this can hardly sound good and refined with so much high power, but this one is an exception.

I heard the D400 mk II in the early 90s. In the mid-90s when Conrad Johnson and Audio Research -- the gold and silver -- were locked in battle at TAS for the audiophile's soul (at least in the US), I home auditioned the ARC VT100. It had decent bass and enough power for my Thiel speakers but It sounded neither good, refined or like the D400. It was etchy and grainy. Apart from the D400 I never felt ARC solid-state as good as their tube amps.

 

[morricab]

I heard the D400 mk II in the early 90s. In the mid-90s when Conrad Johnson and Audio Research -- the gold and silver -- were locked in battle at TAS for the audiophile's soul (at least in the US), I home auditioned the ARC VT100. It had decent bass and enough power for my Thiel speakers but It sounded neither good, refined or like the D400. It was etchy and grainy. Apart from the D400 I never felt ARC solid-state as good as their tube amps.

The VTs were hybrid, weren't they? SS input and driver with tube output. I have heard the VTs and agree with your assessment of the sound but KR Audio has made "reverse" hybrids for a couple decades now that sound really great...so it can be done...just, it seems, not how AR did it.

 

[tima]

The VTs were hybrid, weren't they? SS input and driver with tube output. I have heard the VTs and agree with your assessment of the sound but KR Audio has made "reverse" hybrids for a couple decades now that sound really great...so it can be done...just, it seems, not how AR did it.

Iirc I don't think the VT100 series were hybrids. Two 6550s for output with four 6922s per channel for input and drivers. I vaguely remember seeing (but not hearing) a Kronzilla(?) model with large exotic T1610 (?) ouputs and transistor input and driver. Some time back ARC did make several hybrid amps and preamps - stretching my memory - the D100 amp, SP-11 preamp ... I think.

 

[morricab]

Iirc I don't think the VT100 series were hybrids. Two 6550s for output with four 6922s per channel for input and drivers. I vaguely remember seeing (but not hearing) a Kronzilla(?) model with large exotic T1610 (?) ouputs and transistor input and driver. Some time back ARC did make several hybrid amps and preamps - stretching my memory - the D100 amp, SP-11 preamp ... I think.

Ah Ok, I was thinking of the Classic series then that were hybrids... Although I think ARCs preamps are quite good, I have never been impressed with their amps. I once did a demo of a pair of Wilson Benesch speakers and the sound was "meh" . I asked the dealer what was going on because the system was ARC Ref 3 preamp (generally considered a good one), a Krell Showcase AV DAC/pre thingy and a pair of ARC Ref 250 monos. I was expecting him to say the Krell might be holding the system back, but to my surprise he said it was the ARC monoblocks, which were easily the most expensive part of the system!! Later I brought my amp at the time, a KR Audio VA350i, back to the shop and demoed the speakers again with the same Krell as source and the sound was dramatically better...so much so, that other customers in the shop were coming over an listening with me, even though they were shopping for other speakers/amps etc. there. One guy was asking to play one of his cds on the setup, which I obliged. In the end I found a speaker that I thought sounded better (Odeon Orfeo), but that small WB Arc sounded really great with about 30 watts of SET power.

 

[tima]

Although I think ARCs preamps are quite good, I have never been impressed with their amps.

Yes, I agree. In 2012 owned the ARC Ref 5SE pre and 2SE phono for several years. Sold those and bought the Ref 10 and Ref 10 Phono in 2016. The 10s were/are good and today the Ref 10 and Ref 10 Phono are still their top-line models -- thus far a 10 year run. Sadly in 2017 they lost Ward Fieberger, one time right-hand man to WZJ and the primary lead for those four front-end products. Don't know if they recovered from that loss across all the company turnover. Not much ARC coverage here at WBF, maybe because they haven't had new front-end models.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Ah Ok, I was thinking of the Classic series then that were hybrids... Although I think ARCs preamps are quite good, I have never been impressed with their amps. I once did a demo of a pair of Wilson Benesch speakers and the sound was "meh" . I asked the dealer what was going on because the system was ARC Ref 3 preamp (generally considered a good one), a Krell Showcase AV DAC/pre thingy and a pair of ARC Ref 250 monos. I was expecting him to say the Krell might be holding the system back, but to my surprise he said it was the ARC monoblocks, which were easily the most expensive part of the system!! Later I brought my amp at the time, a KR Audio VA350i, back to the shop and demoed the speakers again with the same Krell as source and the sound was dramatically better...so much so, that other customers in the shop were coming over an listening with me, even though they were shopping for other speakers/amps etc. there. One guy was asking to play one of his cds on the setup, which I obliged. In the end I found a speaker that I thought sounded better (Odeon Orfeo), but that small WB Arc sounded really great with about 30 watts of SET power.

The VT series have only regulators for bias that what i know, full tube signal path.
If I remember correctly.
A modified reference 600 is a tube graveyard, but it plays powerfully and captivatingly.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, I agree. In 2012 owned the ARC Ref 5SE pre and 2SE phono for several years. Sold those and bought the Ref 10 and Ref 10 Phono in 2016. The 10s were/are good and today the Ref 10 and Ref 10 Phono are still their top-line models -- thus far a 10 year run. Sadly in 2017 they lost Ward Fieberger, one time right-hand man to WZJ and the primary lead for those four front-end products. Don't know if they recovered from that loss across all the company turnover. Not much ARC coverage here at WBF, maybe because they haven't had new front-end models.

The current REF10 line (basically an Anniversary preamplfieir) and REF10 phono series are exceptional units, and IMO still sound better than any other current models of ARC - that are cheaper, we must say.

According to my preference the REF Aniversary is my favorite "accessible" preamplifier. I have also hosted simultaneously the Lamm LL1, VTL7.5 and cj GAT2, but my heart in on the 40th Anniversary preamplfier, for its balance of sound attributes.

I have owned the great sounding D70 Audio Reseach and was much less happy with the following hybrid designs - IMO only with the REF610, REF150 and later series ARC joined the top podium again in power amplifiers, although some of the VT series sounded quite decent.

As they say, I could easily retire with a the REF10 units, a REF150 and a pair of Quad ESL63. But I do not want to ...

 

[DasguteOhr]

Vaccume State RTP3D (Alan stock tubes) was probably the best preamp I've had in my system. Resolution, true realistic detail, dynamics, full bandwidth, bass slam, impact, speed and detail etc, with no harshness, listen for hours, life like vocals, acoustic instruments etc.
On good recordings was easy to hear a vocalist take an inward breath before singing next line also could hear what a singers lips and tongue were doing on some recordings, all this without false tipped up HF balance. Kind of like the first time i heard a Quad ESL set up properly for the first time.

I can vividly imagine how good that sounds. A Quad ESL is the benchmark when it comes to resolution and midrange anyway. Most speakers swallow or fail to reveal the details that a Quad can deliver.

 

[microstrip]

I can vividly imagine how good that sounds. A Quad ESL is the benchmark when it comes to resolution and midrange anyway. Most speakers swallow or fail to reveal the details that a Quad can deliver.

Yes. But sometimes fortunately. Who wants to know that the nice river sounds in Paniagua "La Folia" is simply a sink being drained?

I noticed it first time listening to the DSD version in the Quad ESL63.

 

[italia]

Yes. But sometimes fortunately. Who wants to know that the nice river sounds in Paniagua "La Folia" is simply a sink being drained?

I noticed it first time listening to the DSD version in the Quad ESL63.

I don't want to know it's just a sink drain. I want to know if the pipes in the sink are copper, galvanized steel, or PVC. That's why I've had ESL-63's for 35 years.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Yes. But sometimes fortunately. Who wants to know that the nice river sounds in Paniagua "La Folia" is simply a sink being drained?

I noticed it first time listening to the DSD version in the Quad ESL63.

The situation is similar with high-resolution films. For example, Alien on VHS used to be brutally frightening because the alien was barely visible. On Blu-ray, you can see it hanging from the ceiling the whole time. No more shock moments today.

 

[morricab]

Yes. But sometimes fortunately. Who wants to know that the nice river sounds in Paniagua "La Folia" is simply a sink being drained?

I noticed it first time listening to the DSD version in the Quad ESL63.

Read my review in Positive Feedback on that preamp from more than 20 years ago...was a pleasure to live with it for a few months.

 

[morricab]

The situation is similar with high-resolution films. For example, Alien on VHS used to be brutally frightening because the alien was barely visible. On Blu-ray, you can see it hanging from the ceiling the whole time. No more shock moments today.

Maybe you just watched it 20 times...

 

[bonzo75]

The situation is similar with high-resolution films. For example, Alien on VHS used to be brutally frightening because the alien was barely visible. On Blu-ray, you can see it hanging from the ceiling the whole time. No more shock moments today.

Yeah imagine if you kept seeing the shark all the time under the water in Jaws

 

[Holmz]

Without spinning to deeply into semantics Ron I think it’s the notion of maximising fluidity as a goal that may lean into something more as a preference tilting or highlighting within the spectrum of potential characteristics in both context and spirit.

So for me both fluidity and angularity are both required and I’d just think in terms of going for appropriate balance of characteristics rather than maximising one characteristic over the other might lead to a better portrayal of realism. But this is just the way I view it.

Maybe we need to spin a bit more deeply into the semantics.
We have liquidity and angularity.
Neither of which I have seen defined, but seem suggestive.

And we are mixing them together like hot and cold water to make something more Goldilocks like?

 

[Ron Resnick]

The stereo is playing music. Out of the box the Incito S sounds wonderful! There is a richness and tonal density that makes the sound more realistic and less electronic artifice.

I am confused because the edginess from the Italians either largely or completely went away. Maybe the edginess was from the Hegel preamp all along. But I also struggled with some edginess when I had the Incito S demo.

The other thing that changed is that I replaced the $29 Harrison Lab FMOD high-pass filters and the Electronic Visionary Systems discrete resistor attenuators with custom, super high-quality parts attenuator plus high pass filter from Phil Marchand. But that only affects the woofer ribbon signal; it has nothing to do with the signal path for the midrange/tweeter ribbon.

The new preamp is the same as I demoed previously for several months, so that shouldn't be the reason. But the new version of the preamp is standard (high) gain, rather than the unusually low gain if the demo Incito S. I think it has something to do with the much higher gain structure putting less pressure on the Italians.

And this is without any sound absorbing panel Band-Aids. I have a Tube Trap covering each first rear reflection point. And the big TubeTraps in the corners. But there are no flat acoustic panels anywhere in the room, not even covering the sidewall first reflection points.

(I've stopped trying to figure out some of the "whys" in this wacky and confounding hobby.)

I'm not gonna dwell on this too much. I was way overdue for some good stereo luck. I'm happy with the sound!

We will have to see what all the boys think! Don is coming over on Saturday.