Reality is Cruel : Cybershaft new Ultimate OCXO 10M Clocks Shootout OP20 vs OP17

[CKKeung]

Any seen the new clock from Titan Audio Labs, the Horae?
http://www.titansaudiolab.com/en/products/Horae/Horae_jiexi.html
Specs seems to be very good. Maybe on par with the Cybershaft 017/020 & Mutec Ref-10?

Titan Audio Labs is a company in Mainland China.
Their Helen processor has a lot of publicity in Mainland China but not so in Hong Kong.
The Horae clock is their new product to be launched this month.

I won't consider it until I can have a listen or if there are some reliable reviews.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Any seen the new clock from Titan Audio Labs, the Horae?

http://www.titansaudiolab.com/en/products/Horae/Horae_jiexi.html

Specs seems to be very good. Maybe on par with the Cybershaft 017/020 & Mutec Ref-10?

Looks more like a Cybershaft OP13 to me, but you don't know till you try!

 

[SCAudiophile]

No, have not seen that one yet; looks to be something worth researching. The one spec. around 939fs of jitter for common audio may or may not be something to be excited about.

 

[bodhifile]

Hi CKKeung, just wondering if the same PC's where used in your OP17/OP20 shootout. In your initial post, they are different in the picture. Thanks

 

[CKKeung]

Hi CKKeung, just wondering if the same PC's where used in your OP17/OP20 shootout. In your initial post, they are different in the picture. Thanks

Don't worry, the same black powercord supplied by Cybershaft was used.
The blue colour wire at the back belongs to another component.

BTW Cybershaft is fulfilling their orders rather slowly.
I guess the OP20/OP21 grade ocxo is short in supply.

 

[bodhifile]

Thanks for the reply. I have an OP13 Ultimate with a Mutec 3+ USB which I am very happy with. Maybe someday I will consider upgrading.

 

[jackson_k]

Guys ,,, I have a situation , I am currently using MUTEC MC3 with REF10 combo , and I am getting a ESOTERIC P02 a the transport soon , but since the ESOTERIC already has 10MHZ clock in , do I still need to go through MUTEC again ? but if I do ,, that would be like having 2 mutec. Will this create more jitter or will this help since it the same theory as re-clocking twice with MUTEC right? just wondering what brothers take is on this , thank you !

 

[SCAudiophile]

Hello...I suspect you would not want to do that at all (putting gate MC3 or MC3+ in-stream with the P-02) plus the REF10 is a MUCH better master clock versus simply re-clocking/word-clocking. We need to know more about the circuit....you are intending to use the P-02 Transport for playing back CD (and SACD?); what are you using for a DAC?

 

[Elberoth]

Guys, if anyone is interested, I have the original Cybershaft Premium 10MHz clock for sale:

Not as good as the OP17 or OP20 clocks described here, but still much better than $23.000 Esoteric G-01 Rubidium Clock

It is also MUCH cheaper than any of those clocks mentioned, which are in the thousands of USD.

$699 + $150 shipping (US, ASIA).

The clock is 230V.

My friend have used it on his Vivaldi clock, but has upgraded to the $4000 Mutec clock that I have described earlier in this thread.

 

[CKKeung]

... Cybershaft is fulfilling their orders rather slowly.
I guess the OP20/OP21 grade ocxo is short in supply.

Another friend of mine who is on Cybershaft waiting list eventually got his OP21 yesterday. He has waited for more than 2 months.

 

[TLi]

Another friend of mine who is on Cybershaft waiting list eventually got his OP21 yesterday. He has waited for more than 2 months.

View attachment 53128

Oh, they still have some good stuff. Can we see the detailed spec sheet?How much it is in OP21 territory?

 

[SCAudiophile]

Oh, they still have some good stuff. Can we see the detailed spec sheet?How much it is in OP21 territory?

The specs and pricing (Japanese Yen, shipping is extra, about 10K Yen for Japan Post EMS with tracking, works very well)
by OP-level are on the Cybershaft website by product (best to open URLs using Google Chrome translate the Japanese
to your native language);

Cybershaft Ultimate 1-output clock

Cybershaft Limited2 3-output Clock

To the point in the prior post about shipping timelines, etc....I've been a customer for a while now and have bought the following;

- Dual RB-OCXO clock (my first)
- OP14 single-output (my second)
- two clocks for test (OP17, OP20)
- custom build OP21 a couple years ago that has now been rebuilt to current PROD levels
- see above, a Limited2 OP21 3-output PROD-level update to my prototype (my current clock)

In all these iterations (the 4 purchases and the 2 test clocks), it took ideally 6 weeks in some cases and in others 8
from order to delivery which given the following facts that I've been given when I questioned this turnaround time from
exchange of money to receipt of product, make sense to me but I'm still impatient as an audio-nut when
it comes to getting 'my new stuff';

- Cybershaft is a very small company, they don't stock any clocks as far as I've ever known; this is by design, helps control costs, etc...

- When an order is placed for a given power-configuration/country and OCXO OP-level testing begins to identify a pristine OCXO of that level to base the build upon

- The OCXO is allocated to that order and the build of the case, power supply, etc....begins; multiple testing steps along the way

- Once the final clock build is complete, using Japanese National Standards Lab time and in-house test gear (combined use of BVA, Symmetricon and HP best in class test harnesses and equipment), about twelve (12) days of testing and certification testing on the finished clock commences and must complete. There is then documentation created for that specific clock the buyer has purchased in great detail that gives chapter and verse of the actual test results (which always seem to exceed what is promised) for that serial numbered clock, that are published, not just some boilerplate spec on a web-page or in a manual

- The clock is then shipped (at least several were to me) via Japan Post EMS with tracking; 5-7 days promise with the average being somewhere between 6 and 7

Honestly, I would like it if the turnaround time were shorter but what I've received is built specifically for the end customer (me) as promised with complete test results and absolute transparency into what I purchased. Best of all, they help my system to sound the most musical it ever has and each upgrade has been an improvement.

*Note: I am an end-customer only and a fan of Cybershaft products; I have no affiliation or benefit of any kind beyond how my system sounds.

 

[CKKeung]

The specs and pricing (Japanese Yen, shipping is extra, about 10K Yen for Japan Post EMS with tracking, works very well)
by OP-level are on the Cybershaft website by product (best to open URLs using Google Chrome translate the Japanese
to your native language);

Cybershaft Ultimate 1-output clock

Cybershaft Limited2 3-output Clock

To the point in the prior post about shipping timelines, etc....I've been a customer for a while now and have bought the following;

- Dual RB-OCXO clock (my first)
- OP14 single-output (my second)
- two clocks for test (OP17, OP20)
- custom build OP21 a couple years ago that has now been rebuilt to current PROD levels
- see above, a Limited2 OP21 3-output PROD-level update to my prototype (my current clock)

In all these iterations (the 4 purchases and the 2 test clocks), it took ideally 6 weeks in some cases and in others 8
from order to delivery which given the following facts that I've been given when I questioned this turnaround time from
exchange of money to receipt of product, make sense to me but I'm still impatient as an audio-nut when
it comes to getting 'my new stuff';

- Cybershaft is a very small company, they don't stock any clocks as far as I've ever known; this is by design, helps control costs, etc...

- When an order is placed for a given power-configuration/country and OCXO OP-level testing begins to identify a pristine OCXO of that level to base the build upon

- The OCXO is allocated to that order and the build of the case, power supply, etc....begins; multiple testing steps along the way

- Once the final clock build is complete, using Japanese National Standards Lab time and in-house test gear (combined use of BVA, Symmetricon and HP best in class test harnesses and equipment), about twelve (12) days of testing and certification testing on the finished clock commences and must complete. There is then documentation created for that specific clock the buyer has purchased in great detail that gives chapter and verse of the actual test results (which always seem to exceed what is promised) for that serial numbered clock, that are published, not just some boilerplate spec on a web-page or in a manual

- The clock is then shipped (at least several were to me) via Japan Post EMS with tracking; 5-7 days promise with the average being somewhere between 6 and 7

Honestly, I would like it if the turnaround time were shorter but what I've received is built specifically for the end customer (me) as promised with complete test results and absolute transparency into what I purchased. Best of all, they help my system to sound the most musical it ever has and each upgrade has been an improvement.

*Note: I am an end-customer only and a fan of Cybershaft products; I have no affiliation or benefit of any kind beyond how my system sounds.

Hello Mark,
This is the most detailed info on Cybershaft I have ever read.
Thank you!

Most of the Japanese audio manufacturers are meticulous and Cybershaft is an extreme example.
The quality of their products and their attitude are second to none.

 

[Barry2013]

Has anybody auditioned both the Mutec Ref 10 and the Cybershafts and can report how they compared and why one one was better than the other in respect of sound quality.
Both appear to be well built by good companies, which is obviously important, but the deciding factor for me would be the resultant sound.
It's a serious question from someone who is tempted to add one to my DCS Scarlatti Clock, DAC and Transport and at the moment I have very little information on which to make a decision.
I have also become aware of the Stamford Research product on which I have even less to go on other than the fact that it looks rather more industrial than the other two.
I am grateful to Elberoth for his feedback in favour of the Mutec and I am sure he would appreciate that I, and no doubt others, would find it helpful to have additional perspectives.

 

[CKKeung]

Has anybody auditioned both the Mutec Ref 10 and the Cybershafts and can report how they compared and why one one was better than the other in respect of sound quality.
Both appear to be well built by good companies, which is obviously important, but the deciding factor for me would be the resultant sound.
It's a serious question from someone who is tempted to add one to my DCS Scarlatti Clock, DAC and Transport and at the moment I have very little information on which to make a decision.
I have also become aware of the Stamford Research product on which I have even less to go on other than the fact that it looks rather more industrial than the other two.
I am grateful to Elberoth for his feedback in favour of the Mutec and I am sure he would appreciate that I, and no doubt others, would find it helpful to have additional perspectives.

My personal choice is Cybershaft Limited2 Series which has three 10M clock outputs.

My friends and I compared the two of them directly : a Cybershaft Limited2 OP20 gave better performance in all aspects.
Our subjective impression was that Ref10 was roughly equal to a Cybershaft Op17/18.

However if your system needs more than three 10M clock outputs for synchronization, Mutec Ref10 may be considered.

 

[CKKeung]

Has anybody auditioned both the Mutec Ref 10 and the Cybershafts and can report how they compared and why one one was better than the other in respect of sound quality.
Both appear to be well built by good companies, which is obviously important, but the deciding factor for me would be the resultant sound.
It's a serious question from someone who is tempted to add one to my DCS Scarlatti Clock, DAC and Transport and at the moment I have very little information on which to make a decision.
I have also become aware of the Stamford Research product on which I have even less to go on other than the fact that it looks rather more industrial than the other two.
I am grateful to Elberoth for his feedback in favour of the Mutec and I am sure he would appreciate that I, and no doubt others, would find it helpful to have additional perspectives.

BTW even though you currently need only one 10M clock output for your dCS Scarletti Clock, it's preferred to get a multiple 10M output clock.
It's because there are other audiophile components which has 10M clock input, such as SOtM switch, SOtM USBultra ... etc.

 

[Barry2013]

Thank you CK.
That is helpful.

 

[SCAudiophile]

Hello Mark,
This is the most detailed info on Cybershaft I have ever read.
Thank you!

Most of the Japanese audio manufacturers are meticulous and Cybershaft is an extreme example.
The quality of their products and their attitude are second to none.

You are very welcome....glad to be of assistance.

We are all fortunate that there are a few outstanding options out there for best in class 10Mhz master clocks now, the REF10
and Cybershaft offerings being among them!

 

[Elberoth]

My friend have upgraded from Cybershaft OP10 (which is their basic clock) to Mutec Ref10. Ref 10 could be called OP15-16 in Cybershaft speak.

However, I have no doubts that any OP18-OP21 Cybershaft clock would smoke Mutec. My friend went with Mutec as it was available locally and he was able to test it in his system (via a local dealer).

The nature of changes has always been the same in my experience: with better clock, you can hear much deeper into the recording and the sound becomes much smoother.

 

[microstrip]

My friend have upgraded from Cybershaft OP10 to Mutec Ref10 (which I believe could be called OP15-16 in Cybershaft speak).

However, I have no doubts that any OP18-OP21 Cybershaft clock would smoke Mutec. My friend went with Mutec as it was available locally and he was able to test it in his system (via a local dealer).

The nature of changes has always been the same in my experience: with better clock, you can hear much deeper into the recording and the sound becomes much smoother.

Can we know why you consider that OP18-OP21 Cybershaft clock would smoke Mutec? IMHO we are far from understanding the true reason of why super clocks improve DAC subjective sound quality. What exactly defines a "better" clock?