Question about cable strategy!

[Bill Hart]

Gary, I just read Roger Sanders white paper on cables. From what I read there is a transformer in the speakers that converts the signal from the amp to high voltage for the panels. In the white paper he explains that ideally speaker cables for his panels should be low capacitance and low inductance. Medium resistance is also desireable to swamp the lc effects. He states that a coaxial cable is best to provide both low capacitance and inductance. I am using his coaxial speaker cables so I probably have the most ideal cables for the job. I have not tried other speaker cables with these speakers so I am just curious if there is something I'm missing. I don't hear any issues so I should probably leave well enough alone.

Cheers,

Sean

Sean:
Along time ago, i used a cable called OCOS, i think it was made or distributed by Sumiko, that is, I believe similar to what you describe, for my Crosby Quad. As I recall, they were optimized in the manner you described. I still have them somewhere, they used plug in interfaces on the amp and speaker ends that had something in the little tube and the terminations; i'm pretty sure there were different interfaces that were available for different purposes. Although I haven't used them in years, I still have them stored in the basement, along with a couple decades worth of other cables, in big plastic storage bins.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

whart - I started this thread, and all the other ones, for the simple reason of eliciting responses from a group of people whom I admire. I'd much rather learn from those who have experience than reading a static article or two. And I can tell you that I've learned a lot. It's a credit to you and everyone else that I come back daily to catch my dose of learning.

Although some of my gear is vintage late 70's, and I have done whatever I can to try and maximize its sound, including various cables, I know more can be done. Hence my reason for this thread and the simple fact I am fascinated by the discussion of cables.

 

[microstrip]

Sean:
Along time ago, i used a cable called OCOS, i think it was made or distributed by Sumiko, that is, I believe similar to what you describe, for my Crosby Quad. As I recall, they were optimized in the manner you described. I still have them somewhere, they used plug in interfaces on the amp and speaker ends that had something in the little tube and the terminations; i'm pretty sure there were different interfaces that were available for different purposes. Although I haven't used them in years, I still have them stored in the basement, along with a couple decades worth of other cables, in big plastic storage bins.

Sean
The OCOS cables are a coaxial cable, but they were not optimized in the manner described. They have a dielectric of low resistivity (exactly the opposite we usually find) to lower the characteristic impedance of the cable to the low oms - around ten if I remember well. The first generation had special interface connectors, current one uses normal spades or 4mm plugs. Curiously, most of the time, the best sound we could get from them was using three pairs in parallel - the famous triple OCOS.

 

[Bill Hart]

Sean
The OCOS cables are a coaxial cable, but they were not optimized in the manner described. They have a dielectric of low resistivity (exactly the opposite we usually find) to lower the characteristic impedance of the cable to the low oms - around ten if I remember well. The first generation had special interface connectors, current one uses normal spades or 4mm plugs. Curiously, most of the time, the best sound we could get from them was using three pairs in parallel - the famous triple OCOS.

Micro, thanks, I stand corrected. Sounds like you know more about them than me. They seemed to work pretty well back in the day.

 

[LenWhite]

That would be Lars of Nordost fame. Convincing and well done.

Actually the seminars were led by Roy Gregory who at the time was editor of HiFi+ magazine.

 

[garylkoh]

I was exaggerating to emphasize a point. The more absolute control the amp has over the speaker, especially LF, the clearer and more detailed that frequency range is. Without sufficient damping, the LF driver will 'overshoot' trying to follow the waveform being delivered to it. You know all this, I'm sure. To me, the difference of LF performance between 12 and 9 gauge is significant, let alone anything smaller than 12 gauge.

Thanks, Bill. I'm sure that you understand it too - but there are others who might not, which is why I took the few minutes to explain amplifier damping. With my speakers, the woofers are all servo-controlled, which has "infinite" damping, hence I say that the cables I sell are specifically designed for Genesis loudspeakers. However, owners of many other brands of speakers have found them to be pretty good.

When you have large woofers, or multiple woofers, going from 12 gauge to 9 gauge is significant. Also, the characteristic impedance of the cable, and what it does to the damping factor of the amplifier, and the characteristic impedance of the speaker is certainly important in the sonic characteristics of cables.....

Really? Uninsulated stranded has a funny sound about it in the upper HF ranges. Fuzzy, almost, certainly less detail and somewhat rolled off. A solder pot is best for tinning (and melting off) the enamel insulation of Litz strands.

When I was trying to design speaker cables to use for shows, I also went through a bunch of Litz construction - but I didn't find that the non-Litz to be rolled-off. I found the Litz to be fatiguing in the high frequency. This could be due to my speakers not being highly inductive in the high frequencies like most other speakers with a voice coil in the tweeter. My speakers have a ribbon tweeter that is almost 100% resistive above 5kHz.

Impressive! I started mine in 1993 just before the Web exploded. What a ride.

Yes. What a ride indeed! I was burnt out by 2001 and then 9.11 killed me.

So regardless of the 15 gauge test cable, how would your custom 'neutral choice' be constructed -- or started, even?

--Bill

In my speakers, I find that I prefer about 1/3 of the way towards max. capacitance. In speakers with inductive tweeters, may be 1/3 of the way towards max. inductance might sound better..... may be.

 

[garylkoh]

whart - I started this thread, and all the other ones, for the simple reason of eliciting responses from a group of people whom I admire. I'd much rather learn from those who have experience than reading a static article or two. And I can tell you that I've learned a lot. It's a credit to you and everyone else that I come back daily to catch my dose of learning.

Although some of my gear is vintage late 70's, and I have done whatever I can to try and maximize its sound, including various cables, I know more can be done. Hence my reason for this thread and the simple fact I am fascinated by the discussion of cables.

Thanks for starting this thread, John. It does look like it's progressing far better than the one I started

 

[Lee]

Actually the seminars were led by Roy Gregory who at the time was editor of HiFi+ magazine.

Actually we are both right - they switched off and on depending on the day and time.

 

[audioarcher]

Sean
The OCOS cables are a coaxial cable, but they were not optimized in the manner described. They have a dielectric of low resistivity (exactly the opposite we usually find) to lower the characteristic impedance of the cable to the low oms - around ten if I remember well. The first generation had special interface connectors, current one uses normal spades or 4mm plugs. Curiously, most of the time, the best sound we could get from them was using three pairs in parallel - the famous triple OCOS.

Whart and Microstrip,

Sounds like those cables were designed specifically for Quads. Might be an interesting one to try if I find them for cheap.

I could look into different coaxial cable and make my own. Might be an interesting project.

Sean

 

[garylkoh]

Similar to the OCOS cables were the WA cables by Lux Corp of Japan. They did the same thing - coaxial, low resistivity dielectric, and extremely low inductance. I have a pair, but I don't know how they would still perform now that they are almost 40 years old.

 

[Bill Hart]

Whart and Microstrip,

Sounds like those cables were designed specifically for Quads. Might be an interesting one to try if I find them for cheap.

I could look into different coaxial cable and make my own. Might be an interesting project.

Sean

Sean, I don't think the cable itself was designed for Quads or electrostats in general but the particular choice various interface, if I remember, did have something to do with the type of speaker used. It's been so long, and i doubt I have the literature around anymore. Maybe Micro knows.....

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Thanks for starting this thread, John. It does look like it's progressing far better than the one I started

Thanks Gary and let's hope so!

I have a friend who has a very nice system consisting of Bryston, Arcam, Totem, Nordost and a few others that I can't quite recall. His Nordost products consists of their IC's and PC's, but no speaker cable. He instead went with Totem's "Tress" line of speaker cable and claims they were a better match for his Totem Forests. Are you familiar with the Tress?

 

[garylkoh]

Thanks Gary and let's hope so!

I have a friend who has a very nice system consisting of Bryston, Arcam, Totem, Nordost and a few others that I can't quite recall. His Nordost products consists of their IC's and PC's, but no speaker cable. He instead went with Totem's "Tress" line of speaker cable and claims they were a better match for his Totem Forests. Are you familiar with the Tress?

Sorry, I don't have any experience with Totem's cables. Just based on specifications, it sounds pretty good. Controlled impedance cables twisted pair can perform well. If they were designed for the speakers, likely they would have taken the trouble to find the balance of inductance and capacitance to sound best with the speaker design.

 

[audioarcher]

Similar to the OCOS cables were the WA cables by Lux Corp of Japan. They did the same thing - coaxial, low resistivity dielectric, and extremely low inductance. I have a pair, but I don't know how they would still perform now that they are almost 40 years old.

Interesting. At 40 years old they would probably benifit from reterminating the ends. I suppose corrosion could have crept down the cable if they were stored in a wet environment.

They would be interesting to try if you want to dig them out.

If you have 40 year old cables in your closet I wonder what other goodies you have hiding in there.

Sean

 

[mep]

I suppose corrosion could have crept down the cable if they were stored in a wet environment.

Sean

Remember that song "The Funky Cold Medina?" This could be new version called the Funky Green Patina.

 

[Jay_S]

Micro, thanks, I stand corrected. Sounds like you know more about them than me. They seemed to work pretty well back in the day.

That's funny. I still use bi-wired OCOS. They don't wear out! I can't identify any specific sonic characteristics but one day I plan to try something else just to satisfy my curiousity.

 

[garylkoh]

Remember that song "The Funky Cold Medina?" This could be new version called the Funky Green Patina.

You're funny, Mark.

Sean, our next PNWAS meeting is Vintage Gear. If I can find them, I'll bring them to the meeting. They would certainly qualify as vintage

 

[audioarcher]

You're funny, Mark.

Sean, our next PNWAS meeting is Vintage Gear. If I can find them, I'll bring them to the meeting. They would certainly qualify as vintage

Good point. The cables might be the oldest piece there unless someone brings something from the 50's or 60's.

 

[microstrip]

Whart and Microstrip,

Sounds like those cables were designed specifically for Quads. Might be an interesting one to try if I find them for cheap.

I could look into different coaxial cable and make my own. Might be an interesting project.

Sean

Audioarcher,

The OCOS were not designed specifically for Quad's - the only speaker manufacturer I remember endorsing them was Dynaudio. Some models, such as the enormous Consequence mk2 or the old Contour were fitted with the special Ocos coaxial speaker connector that allowed direct connection of the Ocos without adapters.
These cables had high WAF - they were thin and discrete. I have a pair in my wife office system.

You usually can get them at the German ebay for very nice prices.

 

[Bill Hart]

Audioarcher,

The OCOS were not designed specifically for Quad's - the only speaker manufacturer I remember endorsing them was Dynaudio. Some models, such as the enormous Consequence mk2 or the old Contour were fitted with the special Ocos coaxial speaker connector that allowed direct connection of the Ocos without adapters.
These cables had high WAF - they were thin and discrete. I have a pair in my wife office system.

You usually can get them at the German ebay for very nice prices.

Micro- i did a little digging. I think they were made by Dynaudio, which would explain the endorsement! FWIW, i just looked and i have 4 red adapters, and no black network interfaces for my OCOS- this is consistent with what i remember being told when i bought them, that with electrostats, they used a different interface than the 'normal' one. Apparently, they were normally sold to use an interface network on i think the speaker end (which dealt with impedence) and the adapter (which had nothing in it in the form of a network) on the amp end. I think they quit making them several years ago.