Question about cable strategy!

[Johnny Vinyl]

Isn't that up to the moderator to keep the thread on track? This should be a discussion of cable principles among those who know there are significant differences in most cables and have high resolution equipment which can easily reveal it. Not to mention, ears to discern it. Dissenters need not reply since it's not that debate.

Not trying to be condescending, just blunt.

--Bill

With respect I disagree completely and your bluntness is condescending! You make the assumption that only those with high-resolution systems can offer a true opinion. And who are you say that a frugal audiophile doens't have the ears to discern differences in cable implementation. By the way...I only asked for opinion, not debate. I thought my threadstart was very simple and clear, so if you have an opinion relating to that I welcome it.

Thanks!

 

[Bill Hart]

With respect I disagree completely and your bluntness is condescending! You make the assumption that only those with high-resolution systems can offer a true opinion. And who are you say that a frugal audiophile doens't have the ears to discern differences in cable implementation. By the way...I only asked for opinion, not debate. I thought my threadstart was very simple and clear, so if you have an opinion relating to that I welcome it.

Thanks!

John, I didn't read bblue's comment that way. I think he was responding to the possibility that a 'cables all sound the same'
diatribe would get launched, which is what apparently derailed Gary's earlier thread. I thought bblue was saying "let's not worry about getting mugged by the 'all cables are the same' camp because the people who should be weighing in here are people who can hear differences in cable." I don't think it was meant as a pot shot about those with less expensive equipment at all.
PS: his comment about 'those with the ears to discern it' would seem to apply no matter what the equipment.

 

[bblue]

With respect I disagree completely and your bluntness is condescending! You make the assumption that only those with high-resolution systems can offer a true opinion. And who are you say that a frugal audiophile doens't have the ears to discern differences in cable implementation. By the way...I only asked for opinion, not debate. I thought my threadstart was very simple and clear, so if you have an opinion relating to that I welcome it.

Sorry John, that isn't what I was trying to do. But no, I don't have much to offer in that area. The only speaker cable that's really inexpensive and well worth it that I've run across is Paul Speltz's Anti-Cable, the hard drawn copper one. It's actually pretty decent for what it is. But definitely not a high end cable. Just a good value.

And I'm not saying that a frugal audiophile doesn't have the ears to discern cable differences. The problem is that frequently choices of frugal equipment along with specific types of cable will produce results that are completely inconsistent with the same cable revealed on higher end gear. That's not condescension, that's fact (IMO). One would think that a transparent cable is transparent on any gear, but it often isn't, or may reveal something else that the listener doesn't want to hear. What you might find satisfactory may not be something I would find acceptable as heard on my gear, or vice versa. I'm personally looking for something that is truly transparent and revealing. And if that turns up a problem with another piece of gear or cable upstream, that'll get replaced as well (up to a limit). So our goals may be quite different, or not. Time will tell.

--Bill

 

[bblue]

John, I didn't read bblue's comment that way. I think he was responding to the possibility that a 'cables all sound the same'
diatribe would get launched, which is what apparently derailed Gary's earlier thread. I thought bblue was saying "let's not worry about getting mugged by the 'all cables are the same' camp because the people who should be weighing in here are people who can hear differences in cable." I don't think it was meant as a pot shot about those with less expensive equipment at all.

Bill, you are correct with your interpretation of what I was trying to say. The moderator should take a heavy hand in keeping this potentially useful thread on track.

PS: his comment about 'those with the ears to discern it' would seem to apply no matter what the equipment.

Yes, that's true, but it could also be the way the system is set up or even just one piece of equipment or cable that is destroying that listener's ability to hear (or notice) a difference downstream.

--Bill

 

[bblue]

Bill, that's the thread - it's not one that I want to revive. It will go the same way. Hopefully this thread ends up better.

I hope so too. I'll have to say, though, that there were some things in that thread that I vehemently disagreed with, having tried variations of them myself.

First, the notion that 15 gauge speaker cable was adequate, to me is nonsense. Anything higher than 11 gauge equivalent isn't even a consideration for me, and better than 9 gauge equivalent preferred... Unless you want the speakers to flap around uncontrolled by the amplifier (damping).

And the use of any non-insulated per-strand stranded cable is a non-starter as well. I'd much rather use 28 gauge solid in a Litz type formation.

That aside, I've never seen any stranded CAT5e cable. I wired my entire house and office with it from several manufacturers and it all was solid core. When I owned an ISP for some ten years, there wasn't any stranded CAT-anything anywhere in the facility. Obviously you have some, but how would you use it with punch down blocks and the like for ethernet installations?

Have you seen Chris VenHaus's CAT5 DIY cable? HERE I think this would sound pretty decent in most systems, but man, what a bear to assemble. That's the only thing that stopped me from trying it a while back. It's now available pre-woven in an OCC and OFHC form.

Anyway, looking forward to your ideas/suggestions.

--Bill

 

[bblue]

Hey MEP, clear your PM mailbox! I can't reply.

--Bill

 

[garylkoh]

I hope so too. I'll have to say, though, that there were some things in that thread that I vehemently disagreed with, having tried variations of them myself.

First, the notion that 15 gauge speaker cable was adequate, to me is nonsense. Anything higher than 11 gauge equivalent isn't even a consideration for me, and better than 9 gauge equivalent preferred... Unless you want the speakers to flap around uncontrolled by the amplifier (damping).

Good! Disagreement is a good place to start to learning. The cables that I propose is not adequate for all speakers. However, I disagree that the speakers will flap around uncontrolled by the amplifier damping.

Amplifier damping is easy to understand - it is a simple equation of speaker impedance divided by amplifier output impedance. So, if you have an output impedance of 0.1 ohm and a loudspeaker impedance of 8 ohm, you get a damping of 80. A tube amplifier of output impedance of 2 ohm will then have a damping factor of 4. The highly regarded Burmester 911 with a damping factor of 4250 has an output impedance of 0.00188 ohm.

The Cat5e 2m length has a resistance of 0.05 ohm. So, used in a tube amp, the reduction of damping factor is negligible. In the SS amp with damping of 80, it is reduced to 53, and the Burmester would have its damping reduced to 154.

Resistance of a 15awg copper cable is about 2.5 times the resistance of 11awg copper. So, instead of 0.05 ohm, the 11awg cable should be 0.02 ohm. Then, the damping of 80 is reduced to 66, and the Burmester would have damping of 365 (more than twice).

Do I think that the change from 15awg to 11awg is audible? Yes, I do. Would the woofers "flap uncontrollably"? No, I do not.

And the use of any non-insulated per-strand stranded cable is a non-starter as well. I'd much rather use 28 gauge solid in a Litz type formation.

I accept this. I don't like using Litz type wire because they are so hard to strip correctly, but I have no sonic reason for preferring Litz over stranded.

That aside, I've never seen any stranded CAT5e cable. I wired my entire house and office with it from several manufacturers and it all was solid core. When I owned an ISP for some ten years, there wasn't any stranded CAT-anything anywhere in the facility. Obviously you have some, but how would you use it with punch down blocks and the like for ethernet installations?

Great to meet a fellow ISP owner. I founded the first commercial ISP in Singapore - Pacific Internet. http://www.ifc.org/ifcext/spiwebsite1.nsf/ProjectDisplay/SPI10403

I went through only 3 different cables before I found the stranded one below. On the jacket is printed "Belkin Corporation Category 5e Patch Cable #R7J304 UTP 4PR 24AWG Type CM (UL) E126126-DG Type FT1 LL58663" I bought various cables from Fry's, Walmart and Radio Shack. The particular cables I ended up using was from Radio Shack.

Have you seen Chris VenHaus's CAT5 DIY cable? HERE I think this would sound pretty decent in most systems, but man, what a bear to assemble. That's the only thing that stopped me from trying it a while back. It's now available pre-woven in an OCC and OFHC form.

Anyway, looking forward to your ideas/suggestions.

--Bill

Yes, I tried it - the configuration is the same as my "maximum capacitance, minimum inductance" model. The other model I have is "maximum inductance, minimum capacitance". The trick is to find somewhere in between that sounds best to your ears.

 

[mep]

Hey MEP, clear your PM mailbox! I can't reply.

--Bill

I did Bill.

 

[JackD201]

I once helped my daughter make friendship bracelets for a charity project. That was tough enough for my sausage fingers but this? No way man.

 

[garylkoh]

I once helped my daughter make friendship bracelets for a charity project. That was tough enough for my sausage fingers but this? No way man.

View attachment 4097

Yeah - after doing it, your fingers will be raw and painful for weeks! My project is much easier

 

[Lee]

I don't like these rules of thumb for what to spend. Then again I use $2K speakers with $50K of electronics.

You really cannot go by percentages like this. There are too many variables.

The best strategy. Try everything in your price range by auditioning them in your own system. If the dealer won't do this, find another dealer.

 

[audioarcher]

Good! Disagreement is a good place to start to learning. The cables that I propose is not adequate for all speakers. However, I disagree that the speakers will flap around uncontrolled by the amplifier damping.

Amplifier damping is easy to understand - it is a simple equation of speaker impedance divided by amplifier output impedance. So, if you have an output impedance of 0.1 ohm and a loudspeaker impedance of 8 ohm, you get a damping of 80. A tube amplifier of output impedance of 2 ohm will then have a damping factor of 4. The highly regarded Burmester 911 with a damping factor of 4250 has an output impedance of 0.00188 ohm.

The Cat5e 2m length has a resistance of 0.05 ohm. So, used in a tube amp, the reduction of damping factor is negligible. In the SS amp with damping of 80, it is reduced to 53, and the Burmester would have its damping reduced to 154.

Resistance of a 15awg copper cable is about 2.5 times the resistance of 11awg copper. So, instead of 0.05 ohm, the 11awg cable should be 0.02 ohm. Then, the damping of 80 is reduced to 66, and the Burmester would have damping of 365 (more than twice).

Do I think that the change from 15awg to 11awg is audible? Yes, I do. Would the woofers "flap uncontrollably"? No, I do not.




I accept this. I don't like using Litz type wire because they are so hard to strip correctly, but I have no sonic reason for preferring Litz over stranded.




Great to meet a fellow ISP owner. I founded the first commercial ISP in Singapore - Pacific Internet. http://www.ifc.org/ifcext/spiwebsite1.nsf/ProjectDisplay/SPI10403

I went through only 3 different cables before I found the stranded one below. On the jacket is printed "Belkin Corporation Category 5e Patch Cable #R7J304 UTP 4PR 24AWG Type CM (UL) E126126-DG Type FT1 LL58663" I bought various cables from Fry's, Walmart and Radio Shack. The particular cables I ended up using was from Radio Shack.

View attachment 4093



Yes, I tried it - the configuration is the same as my "maximum capacitance, minimum inductance" model. The other model I have is "maximum inductance, minimum capacitance". The trick is to find somewhere in between that sounds best to your ears.

Hi Gary,

Which model would you choose for an electrostatic panel such as my Innersound Kayas? I'm guessing minimum capacitance would be best since the panel acts as a capacitor already?

Thanks,

Sean

 

[Lee]

RMAF seminars I've attended demonstrated how a solid "system foundation" (equipment placement, synergistic cabling, resonance control) ensures optimum performance of even modest audio equipment. Seminar attendees were advised to consider using a cable loom (IC's, PC's, speaker cable) all from the same manufacturer to optimize design continuity throughout the electrical path.

That would be Lars of Nordost fame. Convincing and well done.

 

[garylkoh]

Hi Gary,

Which model would you choose for an electrostatic panel such as my Innersound Kayas? I'm guessing minimum capacitance would be best since the panel acts as a capacitor already?

Thanks,

Sean

Not necessarily. The capacitance is in the panel, but there should be a crossover, and sometimes an impedance-matching transformer. I have not measured the Innersound designs, but Martin Logan still has a lot of inductance in the input impedance.

The trick is to build the two pairs, listen to them, and decide where you want to be along the spectrum with these two extremes. Then, build a pair along that spectrum.

 

[audioarcher]

Not necessarily. The capacitance is in the panel, but there should be a crossover, and sometimes an impedance-matching transformer. I have not measured the Innersound designs, but Martin Logan still has a lot of inductance in the input impedance.

The trick is to build the two pairs, listen to them, and decide where you want to be along the spectrum with these two extremes. Then, build a pair along that spectrum.

My Innersounds use an active crossover. Not sure how that effects things.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[garylkoh]

My Innersounds use an active crossover. Not sure how that effects things.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Sean - the Kayas have an external active crossover and they supply a bass amplifier for the 10" woofer. It supplies a high-passed signal to the main amp which drives the electrostatic panel. Does this mean that the main amp sees the panel with no crossover? If it does, it will short circuit in the high frequencies!

 

[audioarcher]

Sean - the Kayas have an external active crossover and they supply a bass amplifier for the 10" woofer. It supplies a high-passed signal to the main amp which drives the electrostatic panel. Does this mean that the main amp sees the panel with no crossover? If it does, it will short circuit in the high frequencies!

Gary, I just read Roger Sanders white paper on cables. From what I read there is a transformer in the speakers that converts the signal from the amp to high voltage for the panels. In the white paper he explains that ideally speaker cables for his panels should be low capacitance and low inductance. Medium resistance is also desireable to swamp the lc effects. He states that a coaxial cable is best to provide both low capacitance and inductance. I am using his coaxial speaker cables so I probably have the most ideal cables for the job. I have not tried other speaker cables with these speakers so I am just curious if there is something I'm missing. I don't hear any issues so I should probably leave well enough alone.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[bblue]

Do I think that the change from 15awg to 11awg is audible? Yes, I do. Would the woofers "flap uncontrollably"? No, I do not.

I was exaggerating to emphasize a point. The more absolute control the amp has over the speaker, especially LF, the clearer and more detailed that frequency range is. Without sufficient damping, the LF driver will 'overshoot' trying to follow the waveform being delivered to it. You know all this, I'm sure. To me, the difference of LF performance between 12 and 9 gauge is significant, let alone anything smaller than 12 gauge.

I accept this. I don't like using Litz type wire because they are so hard to strip correctly, but I have no sonic reason for preferring Litz over stranded.

Really? Uninsulated stranded has a funny sound about it in the upper HF ranges. Fuzzy, almost, certainly less detail and somewhat rolled off. A solder pot is best for tinning (and melting off) the enamel insulation of Litz strands.

Great to meet a fellow ISP owner. I founded the first commercial ISP in Singapore - Pacific Internet. http://www.ifc.org/ifcext/spiwebsite1.nsf/ProjectDisplay/SPI10403

Impressive! I started mine in 1993 just before the Web exploded. What a ride.

I went through only 3 different cables before I found the stranded one below. On the jacket is printed "Belkin Corporation Category 5e Patch Cable #R7J304 UTP 4PR 24AWG Type CM (UL) E126126-DG Type FT1 LL58663" I bought various cables from Fry's, Walmart and Radio Shack. The particular cables I ended up using was from Radio Shack.

I usually purchase from electronics or telecom distributors/wholesalers, sometimes Fry's.

Yes, I tried it - the configuration is the same as my "maximum capacitance, minimum inductance" model. The other model I have is "maximum inductance, minimum capacitance". The trick is to find somewhere in between that sounds best to your ears.

Ok. That preference would be in part determined by the power amp's sensitivity to capacitive loading. In my case, the Pass Labs X250.5 would be almost immune to those concerns.

So regardless of the 15 gauge test cable, how would your custom 'neutral choice' be constructed -- or started, even?

--Bill

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

John, I didn't read bblue's comment that way. I think he was responding to the possibility that a 'cables all sound the same'
diatribe would get launched, which is what apparently derailed Gary's earlier thread. I thought bblue was saying "let's not worry about getting mugged by the 'all cables are the same' camp because the people who should be weighing in here are people who can hear differences in cable." I don't think it was meant as a pot shot about those with less expensive equipment at all.
PS: his comment about 'those with the ears to discern it' would seem to apply no matter what the equipment.

Sorry John, that isn't what I was trying to do. But no, I don't have much to offer in that area. The only speaker cable that's really inexpensive and well worth it that I've run across is Paul Speltz's Anti-Cable, the hard drawn copper one. It's actually pretty decent for what it is. But definitely not a high end cable. Just a good value.

And I'm not saying that a frugal audiophile doesn't have the ears to discern cable differences. The problem is that frequently choices of frugal equipment along with specific types of cable will produce results that are completely inconsistent with the same cable revealed on higher end gear. That's not condescension, that's fact (IMO). One would think that a transparent cable is transparent on any gear, but it often isn't, or may reveal something else that the listener doesn't want to hear. What you might find satisfactory may not be something I would find acceptable as heard on my gear, or vice versa. I'm personally looking for something that is truly transparent and revealing. And if that turns up a problem with another piece of gear or cable upstream, that'll get replaced as well (up to a limit). So our goals may be quite different, or not. Time will tell.

--Bill

It's obvious I misinterpreted your post Bill, and thank you whart for bringing that to my attention.

 

[Bill Hart]

John- one of the things i like about this forum is that people are focused on getting results from the equipment- and the 'why' of it, including the philosophy behind the design, the science of it, and how to maximize performance (tweakage), rather than just posting "look what I scored today." There are plenty of systems here that are crazy over the top- take mike lavigne's for example, but mike is such an earnest guy, and it is not about the 'bling' or 'my ferrari is faster than your lambo' stuff. To be sure, what i have learned in playing with this stuff for forty plus years now is that the room, set up and the fundamentals, like AC power and the cable issue you are focusing on, often are the key to the magic, rather than just going out and buying some latest and greatest component. And, having said that, what thrills me more than a shiny new box is somebody unearthing some ancient theatre sound equipment from the 30's or 40's and making it sing!