Pin point imaging?

I think the best full range electrostats for imaging are the Sound Lab and Acoustat 6600. Unfortunately Sound Lab rarely exhibit at shows, even less now that Ray Kimber isn't demo'ing his IsoMike recordings as often. I've heard spooky real imaging the few times I have heard Sound Labs (assuming it is on the recording, not pin point imaging all the time). True they will not make a solo human voice sound as "small" as a pair of monitors placed several feet in front of you, but they still sound very convincing on the solo vocalists I have heard.
 
For perfect imaging, a solo human voice with nothing else, should be played through ONE speaker.
 
I think the best full range electrostats for imaging are the Sound Lab and Acoustat 6600. Unfortunately Sound Lab rarely exhibit at shows, even less now that Ray Kimber isn't demo'ing his IsoMike recordings as often. I've heard spooky real imaging the few times I have heard Sound Labs (assuming it is on the recording, not pin point imaging all the time). True they will not make a solo human voice sound as "small" as a pair of monitors placed several feet in front of you, but they still sound very convincing on the solo vocalists I have heard.

Sound Lab is always at RMAF and CES/The Show at the Flamingo. Brian Walsh of Essential Audio in Chicago usually sets the speakers/system up.
 
Sound Lab is always at RMAF and CES/The Show at the Flamingo. Brian Walsh of Essential Audio in Chicago usually sets the speakers/system up.

I didn't know this, I will try to make the 2013 RMAF. I've only attended shows on the east coast, and rarely saw them brought up in online show recaps.
 
I didn't know this, I will try to make the 2013 RMAF. I've only attended shows on the east coast, and rarely saw them brought up in online show recaps.

I don't see them listed for RMAF. I'll drop Brian a line and see if they'll be there.

OK checked with Brian and won't be at RMAF but will be at CES. They have some new things happening in the product line.

Here's also a link to the new update for the backplate that should be available shortly for SL speakers. Among other things, makes the speaker more efficient.
 
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I don't see them listed for RMAF. I'll drop Brian a line and see if they'll be there.

OK checked with Brian and won't be at RMAF but will be at CES. They have some new things happening in the product line.

Here's also a link to the new update for the backplate that should be available shortly for SL speakers. Among other things, makes the speaker more efficient.

I don't see the link for the new update in your post. Do you know what the new sensitivity of the 945 is?
 
I don't see the link for the new update in your post. Do you know what the new sensitivity of the 945 is?

I seem to remember Brian saying they were 3 dB more efficient. With the SL, every dB counts :)
 
For perfect imaging, a solo human voice with nothing else, should be played through ONE speaker.

Hello, Gary. Recording dependent, IMO and IME. BB King, Live at the regal on a stellar system [stereo] would be a perfect example.

Tom
 
I seem to remember Brian saying they were 3 dB more efficient. With the SL, every dB counts :)

Absolutely, 3 dB more efficient is great news.
 
The Groove Note Sampler that has Eden Atwood's version of Blame it on my Youth has a stereo track and a multichannel track that demonstrates just this effect.

Lee

-----Cool. I presume you did hear it Lee; what do you think?

* Best (preferably) would be to have three identical frontstage loudspeakers. ...In a vertical position too (center speaker).

Me I like a lot; from my Living Stereo SACDs. ...So is Kal (Rubinson) from Stereophile.

Furthermore, many stereo recordings benefit from Dolby ProLogicII Music audio mode.
And of course I like all (most of) those Blu-ray Music Concert videos, with well recorded multichannel hi res audio soundtracks.
 
-----Cool. I presume you did hear it Lee; what do you think?

* Best (preferably) would be to have three identical frontstage loudspeakers. ...In a vertical position too (center speaker).

Me I like a lot; from my Living Stereo SACDs. ...So is Kal (Rubinson) from Stereophile.

Furthermore, many stereo recordings benefit from Dolby ProLogicII Music audio mode.
And of course I like all (most of) those Blu-ray Music Concert videos, with well recorded multichannel hi res audio soundtracks.

I have B&W 801D Left & Right speakers and the HTM1D center channel. The center is maybe a little "underpowered" (it weighs 200lbs.!) compared to the mains. Atwood's voice is more confined in the multichannel presentation, with more room ambience (reverb?) in the stereo mix. I will have to listen to both tracks again to definitively state which version I prefer. I also have several of the Living Stereo and Living Presence 3 channel SACDs and feel that the center channel almost always improves the presentation in my system.

Lee
 
my experience is that to improve the imaging of large line-source dipoles (ML Monoliths in my case), one needs to carefully manage the rear wave of the speaker.

Just think about it, a dipole speaker generates equal, out-of-phase signals that bounce off the walls behind and to the sides of the speaker, and then mix with the direct sound from the front of the speaker. Not only does this create comb-filtering, it also induces spatial positioning anomalies. It's the latter that are often referred to as the 'spacious' soundstage of dipoles.

If one manages the rear-wave with appropriate absorption, these large line-sources can actually generate really uncanny soundstages where depending on the mix, the engineer places sounds inside or outside the circle of speakers.
On recordings like the audiophile vocals SACD, the intimate presence of the singer is right there, in the room with you, and large-scale symphonic is as natural as being in the symphony hall. Or heavily layered prog-rock, like Steve Wilsons oeuvres display his mastery at multichannel mixing and careful positioning.

I've heard these same recordings on other top-tier systems in dedicated custom rooms, and while good, not quite the match of large line-sources for imaging, but, the panel speakers are in a carefully set up room and system.
 
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my experience is that to improve the imaging of large line-source dipoles (ML Monoliths in my case), one needs to carefully manage the rear wave of the speaker.

Just think about it, a dipole speaker generates equal, out-of-phase signals that bounce of the walls behind and to the sides of the speaker, and then mix with the direct sound from the front of the speaker. Not only does this create comb-filtering, it also induces spatial positioning anomalies. it's the latter that are often referred to as the 'spacious' soundstage of dipoles.

If one manages the rear-wave with appropriate absorption, these large line-sources can actually generate really uncanny soundstages where depending on the mix, the engineer places sounds inside or outside the circle of speakers.
On recordings like the audiophile vocals SACD, the intimate presence of the singer is right there, in the room with you, and large-scale symphonic is as natural as being in the symphony hall. Or heavily layered prog-rock, like Steve Wilsons oeuvres display his mastery at multichannel mixing and careful positioning.

I've heard these same recording on other top-tier systems in dedicated custom rooms, and while good, not quite the match of large line-sources for imaging, but, the panel speakers are in a carefully set up room and system.

How much absorption is required to mitigate the effects of the comb filtering?

Tim
 
---...And how much digital processing power and EQuing needed to get rid of those deleterious effects from dipole loudspeakers?

Could you have done it and be satisfied without serious acoustical room treatments?
...And also without Audyssey MultEQ XT32 Room EQ? ...You did use Audyssey Pro right (the kit)?
How many calibration mike measurements did you take total in your room?
Can you tell us those exact positions, please?

_______________

Pin-point Imaging and Realistic Soundtage, is the primary domain of what first?
...Or the combination of what components (electronica) and physical measures?

Bob
 
How much absorption is required to mitigate the effects of the comb filtering?

Tim

Tim, 'mitigate' is indeed the operative word, and it does take a fair amount. In my system the front wall is entirely covered in Realtraps Minitraps HF (a 2" thick panel, offset from wall by 2"). the first 14' of my sidewalls are covered in 2 to 4" thick absorption in a custom setting to manage side-wall reflections as well.

I measure significant reduction in comb-filtering, but some of it is still there. But reduced enough to dramatically improve the imaging of the soundstage. The room no longer dominates, and its more up to the intent of the engineer mixing the recording.

Folks with large panel speakers in untreated rooms have not really heard the magic IMHO.
 
---...And how much digital processing power and EQuing needed to get rid of those deleterious effects from dipole loudspeakers?

Could you have done it and be satisfied without serious acoustic room treatments?
...And also without Audyssey MultEQ XT32 Room EQ? ...You did use Audyssey Pro right (the kit)?
How many calibration mike positions did you take total in your room?
Can you tell us those exact positions?

Bob, yes, I use Room Correction as well as low-frequency EQ in the Speaker processors. It is indeed Audyssey Pro based.

I actually document not only each and every position with graphs, but also include a very handy guide on how to correctly use Audyssey on large line source dipoles in this extensive thread over on the MartinLogan forum.

.
 
Bob, yes, I use Room Correction as well as low-frequency EQ in the Speaker processors. It is indeed Audyssey Pro based.

I actually document not only each and every position with graphs, but also include a very handy guide on how to correctly use Audyssey on large line source dipoles in this extensive thread over on the MartinLogan forum.

.

-----Wow Jonathan, thx a bunch; I would have never found it without that link you just provided. :cool:
 

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