Pin point imaging?

[GaryProtein]

Myles, I am certain it is part of the function of the IRS. It is supposed to make an orchestra sound large, like an orchestra really is. The same thing happens with any very large speaker, especially large line sources or panels like the M-L CLX, Statement E2 or Maggie or large Nolas. Solo voices also appear much larger than life. The laws of physics prevent two speakers five to eight feet tall spaced several feet apart from imaging like a voice that emanates from a vocalist's mouth that has a two inch diameter orifice. Besides, a soloist on stage or in a room does not have depth. It is where it is because it is a point source and all the frequencies come from the exact same place. A dipole helps create the illusion of depth, especially with multiple performers on a stage, so a true point source like a voice will be larger than life. You can't have everything!

 

[trponhunter]

Myles, I am certain it is part of the function of the IRS. It is supposed to make an orchestra sound large, like an orchestra really is. The same thing happens with any very large speaker, especially large line sources or panels like the M-L CLX, Statement E2 or Maggie or large Nolas. Solo voices also appear much larger than life. The laws of physics prevent two speakers five to eight feet tall spaced several feet apart from imaging like a voice that emanates from a vocalist's mouth that has a two inch diameter orifice. Besides, a soloist on stage or in a room does not have depth. It is where it is because it is a point source and all the frequencies come from the exact same place. A dipole helps create the illusion of depth, especially with multiple performers on a stage, so a true point source like a voice will be larger than life. You can't have everything!

An audio system re creating an event is different than our interpretation of an actual event. Think of it like this, if a voice is recorded on a microphone, and that microphone is 12" from the mouth, the perspective it picks up is very very different than if you were in the room listening to the recording being made. Proper playback will not be the sound you heard in that room when you were 5 or 10 or 15 feet away, but we need to try to interpret what the microphone picked up. That's where it gets tricky, because you always need to fill in the blanks. But, the sound you hear in a concert hall when you are seated 25% of the way in the hall during a concert, is VERY different from the much closer perspective that the microphones are picking up. If you try to use the concert sound you hear as an absolute and not factor these other things in, than I would assume you will not have a very truthful or accurate system.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Gary and trpon (can I call you tr?) -- I understand you are new here, but you are treading heavily on the thin ice of Audiophile wisdom. Had you been around a bit longer you'd know that a pair of 7' towering monoliths in a 15' square room can produce the immense sound stage of a symphony orchestra then turn around and produce the perfect intimacy of a delicate solo voice. Both with absolute realism. And if you invest synergize sufficiently, microphones and their placement do not deter a system's ability to drive right through the fragile roadblock of the recording and bring the performance event into you living room. That event was actually in a small studio? No matter. It will sound like the concert hall.

Tim

 

[trponhunter]

Gary and trpon (can I call you tr?) -- I understand you are new here, but you are treading heavily on the thin ice of Audiophile wisdom. Had you been around a bit longer you'd know that a pair of 7' towering monoliths in a 15' square room can produce the immense sound stage of a symphony orchestra then turn around and produce the perfect intimacy of a delicate solo voice. Both with absolute realism. And if you invest synergize sufficiently, microphones and their placement do not deter a system's ability to drive right through the fragile roadblock of the recording and bring the performance event into you living room. That event was actually in a small studio? No matter. It will sound like the concert hall.

Tim

Sorry, but I do not understand your response.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I have had more experience with planars and line source than with conventional box speakers. I haveowned really a few box speakers, maybe two or three (Spica TC-50 , short stint of Vandersteen 2c and Hales Audio).. All my speakers have been planars or line sources. My latest planars were the magnepan namely the 3.6 and 20.1 .. They could sound too big and you could have the overblown too big images. I found out that this can be taken care of by careful room treatment. A mixture of diffusion and absorption did solve the problem. IThe mouth were the size they should , a point in space. I cannot speak for the IRS V but can speak for the Genesis II and 200, I have lived with them for all practical purposes for a good while in the late 80's and early 90's. Again careful placement and proper room treatment does solve the issue. I suppose that our ears create a virtual acoustic center from which the sound seems to emanate with line sources... Those who know more will interject.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Sorry, but I do not understand your response.

Give it time.

Tim

 

[trponhunter]

Give it time.

Tim

Thanks, I really appreciate the condescending attitude. I stated that I did not understand your response with no attitude - just that I wasn't sure of the point you were making since you quoted my statement , since I made no reference to whether a large line source could or could not recreate a large event or a small solo performance.

 

[Gregadd]

Thanks, I really appreciate the condescending attitude. I stated that I did not understand your response with no attitude - just that I wasn't sure of the point you were making since you quoted my statement , since I made no reference to whether a large line source could or could not recreate a large event or a small solo performance.

Nah that's just Tim. He grows on ya.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Thanks, I really appreciate the condescending attitude. I stated that I did not understand your response with no attitude - just that I wasn't sure of the point you were making since you quoted my statement , since I made no reference to whether a large line source could or could not recreate a large event or a small solo performance.

My apologies, I did not mean to condescend. The post you didn't understand was sarcasm. You stated that a large panel or line source could not be expected to project an image like a single voice. Several here have claimed that, and quite a few other things that defy the laws of physics. I merely meant that in time you will understand that your statement -- your perfectly logical, accurate statement, I might add -- is the kind of thing that can lead to pages of voiciferous opposition devoid of evidence.

Tim

 

[trponhunter]

My apologies, I did not mean to condescend. The post you didn't understand was sarcasm. You stated that a large panel or line source could not be expected to project an image like a single voice. Several here have claimed that, and quite a few other things that defy the laws of physics. I merely meant that in time you will understand that your statement -- your perfectly logical, accurate statement, I might add -- is the kind of thing that can lead to pages of voiciferous opposition devoid of evidence.

Tim

Thank you for your apology.
I did not state or mean to imply that a large line source cannot properly reproduce a solo voice. It can, just as it can reproduce a full symphony. Actually, one of the great advantages that true line sources have (line sources, not line arrays - as you know, most people mistakenly call line arrays line sources and figure they are the same thing) is that they virtually eliminate ceiling and floor reflections (which are the worst offenders of reflections in rooms), which allows you to hear more faithfully into the original recording.

 

[FrantzM]

Thank you for your apology.
I did not state or mean to imply that a large line source cannot properly reproduce a solo voice. It can, just as it can reproduce a full symphony. Actually, one of the great advantages that true line sources have (line sources, not line arrays - as you know, most people mistakenly call line arrays line sources and figure they are the same thing) is that they virtually eliminate ceiling and floor reflections (which are the worst offenders of reflections in rooms), which allows you to hear more faithfully into the original recording.

I do agree with that point. The distinctions between Line array and true isnot clear to me as a line array of sufficient length can simulate a line source rather effectively. My theoretical knowledge is however fuzzy on how this is accomplished .

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Sorry again. What I was resonding to was actually quoted in your thread, but not your statement:

Myles, I am certain it is part of the function of the IRS. It is supposed to make an orchestra sound large, like an orchestra really is. The same thing happens with any very large speaker, especially large line sources or panels like the M-L CLX, Statement E2 or Maggie or large Nolas. Solo voices also appear much larger than life. The laws of physics prevent two speakers five to eight feet tall spaced several feet apart from imaging like a voice that emanates from a vocalist's mouth that has a two inch diameter orifice.

I'm sure it has all been very confusing. My bad.

Tim

 

[trponhunter]

Tim,
No problems - thanks again for your apology and we'll all move on and have open, lively debate!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,
No problems - thanks again for your apology and we'll all move on and have open, lively debate!

Cool. Can you give me an example of the kind of speaker you think can project an image like a symphony and a single voice?

Tim

 

[GaryProtein]

Cool. Can you give me an example of the kind of speaker you think can project an image like a symphony and a single voice?

Tim

WOW! I see I'm late to the party here.

I also missed that Tim's post was sarcastic. Anyway, Tim, I believe that if you want to listen to an orchestra, you need a very large speaker. If you are listening to a soloist, and I mean just one musician, you need a small speaker to correctly image the size. If there is a solo singer and an orchestra, that opens up other problems. Nothing is perfect for everything.

You wouldn't expect to squeeze an entire orchestra in a 15 X 15 foot room for a concert, and you wouldn't sit in the back row of the Metropolitan Opera for a personal recital to only you by Andrea Bocelli.

The solution is simple but not always easy to execute. You need two systems, one large and one smaller.

 

[trponhunter]

actually, I think there are quite a few speakers that can do a good job in that regard. To me, the Rockports are the best point source speakers I know of for focusing and imaging, as they pay particular attention to diffraction. I have not heard them, but I would assume the vivids do an excellent job in this regard due to the attenton they pay to diffraction with their rounded enclosures.
Line source speakers can also do an excellent job - however, since most of them are dipoles, it tend to produce a more diffuse, larger image.

 

[MylesBAstor]

WOW! I see I'm late to the party here.

I also missed that Tim's post was sarcastic. Anyway, Tim, I believe that if you want to listen to an orchestra, you need a very large speaker. If you are listening to a soloist, and I mean just one musician, you need a small speaker to correctly image the size. If there is a solo singer and an orchestra, that opens up other problems. Nothing is perfect for everything.

You wouldn't expect to squeeze an entire orchestra in a 15 X 15 foot room for a concert, and you wouldn't sit in the back row of the Metropolitan Opera for a personal recital to only you by Andrea Bocelli.

The solution is simple but not always easy to execute. You need two systems, one large and one smaller.

And tubes for the winter and ss for the summertime

 

[trponhunter]

Let me add one more point - as Gary said, it is obvious that you need a large speaker to produce a symphony , going full force. However, I have had a singular experience of a large speaker focusing as well as a small speaker.

lIt was the active Rockport Arrakis. It blew me away - most specifically in its abilty to sound small. The round, arching enclosure is obviously very slippery, allwoing it to focus as well as the smaller Rockports when I heard them back to back, in the same room, one anfter the other on the same electronics with the same source material.

 

[GaryProtein]

And tubes for the winter and ss for the summertime

I concur. The tubes warm up the cool winter sound and the solid state in summer adjusts for the summer heat that would make the tubes sound mushy and ill-defined.

 

[NorthStar]

---I read the review today; those Martin Logan Montis measured very well. :b
...I was amazed actually. ...They are extremely flat (frequency response), and very well balanced across the audio spectrum.

* For best imaging those Martin Logans need special care in their positioning.
They are much more fussy to position than regular box speakers.
And the listening position too has to be re-evaluated.

Robert Deutsch, the reviewer, IMO, needs to experiment more with his room, speakers, and listener positioning. It is a more complex balanced Art to do with Martin Logan.

P.S. Good thread so far.