PCM to DSD...the new PS Audio DAC

[Andre Marc]

R u kidding me ? Please state your case. You complete post fails to convince me.

Agree, a bit of stretch. But it is clearly different than PCM.

 

[tailspn]

Learn. Do the research, the 30,000 foot view is not difficult. Here's some starter links. Do the table on the embedded.com link, and you'll understand more about DSD that the vast majority of "experts".

DSD is as analog as FM radio, of which it resembles. But since it's bounded into/by two levels, thus record-able as any digital data stream, it gets confused and branded as value based digital information. It's not. It's simply a modulated pulse density bit stream. That's why you can play it back with a simple RC integrator.

http://www.embedded.com/design/debu...-of-sigma-delta-analog-to-digital-converters-

https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-4775/diff?secondVersionNumber=2

http://www.beis.de/Elektronik/DeltaSigma/DeltaSigma.html

Or take my word for it

 

[rockitman]

Learn. Do the research, the 30,000 foot view is not difficult. Here's some starter links. Do the table on the embedded.com link, and you'll understand more about DSD that the vast majority of "experts".

http://www.embedded.com/design/debu...-of-sigma-delta-analog-to-digital-converters-

https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-4775/diff?secondVersionNumber=2

http://www.beis.de/Elektronik/DeltaSigma/DeltaSigma.html

Or take my word for it

you cannot wiggle your way around the FACT that DSD requires an analog to digital conversion (a Digital domain process). That is not analog. Sorry

 

[j.phelan]

All DSD recordings are multi-bit - 4 bits one quarter as often or 8 bits one eighth as often. This has to be - in order to perform calculations on the signal, level changes, dithering, etc. You cannot dither a 1-bit stream.

Then SACD players - all transcode to PCM, despite the marketing claims made by high-end brands.

There's no misinformation here - only people who continue to be in the dark...

 

[Andre Marc]

All DSD recordings are multi-bit - 4 bits one quarter as often or 8 bits one eighth as often. This has to be - in order to perform calculations on the signal, level changes, dithering, etc. You cannot dither a 1-bit stream.

Then DSD DACs - all transcode to PCM, despite the marketing claims made by high-end branders.

There's no misinformation here - only people who continue to be in the dark...

No, not all DSD DACs transcode to PCM.

 

[j.phelan]

I corrected the "DSD DAC" thing, in my last post (is now "SACD players").

But the point stays the same...

 

[Andre Marc]

I corrected the "DSD DAC" thing, in my last post (is now "SACD players").

But the point stays the same...

Don't think that is true either...

 

[j.phelan]

Mmm...professional audio reviewer - who doesn't know this:

wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format

Then, editor of Stereophile reporting that "all current generation DSD-capable DAC chips transcode to PCM."
This - in his review of NAD M50 (earlier this year, tail-end of review).

This underscores (two) of our problems - misinformation (from brand co.) then people *accepting* these claims as truth.

 

[Andre Marc]

Mmm...professional audio reviewer - who doesn't know this:

wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format

Then, editor of Stereophile reporting that "all current generation DSD-capable DAC chips transcode to PCM."
This - in his review of NAD M50 (earlier this year, tail-end of review).

This underscores (two) of our problems - misinformation (from brand co.) then people *accepting* these claims as truth.

John Atkinson said NO SUCH THING!!!

"... and I understand that almost all of the current generation of DSD-capable DAC chips actually transcode to PCM before conversion to analog.)"

He says "I understand" which means it is not a conclusive fact, and "almost" all.....yet again, misinformation.

This Jriver link pertains to JRiver 17.....TWO generations ago. They are now on 19, with NO PCM transcoding. Yet again, misinformation.

And Audirvana and Foobar and Pure Music handle DSD natively too. Next?

 

[j.phelan]

`
The "jriver" link was updated as recently as this year - right in the "history".

For the DAC chips -"almost all" is close enough. One freak DAC-chip (that doesn't transcode) won't cut it. Listeners of SACD are hearing *PCM* - as processed before conversion to analog.

And I am not going to challenge John Atkinson on facts pertaining to the audio industry - but you could if you want.

 

[Andre Marc]

The jriver link was updated as recently as this year - right in the "history".

The DAC chips - "almost all" is close enough. One freak DAC-chip (that doesn't transcode) won't cut it. Listeners of SACD are hearing *PCM* - as processed before conversion to analog.

I am not going to challenge John Atkinson on facts pertaining to the audio industry - but you could if you want.

...believe what you want.

 

[FrantzM]

Interesting tidbits ... That almost all SACD players transcode to PCM ... Would be interesting to make of the list of those who don't...

For the record I am not a DSD fan.

 

[Orb]

Franz,
many of those using FPGA/bespoke DACs also will not need to transcode to PCM; depends upon their design and even then some of the modern mainstream DACs have bypass circuitry to maintain native DSD, now whether and if used correctly is another story.

I am smiling because I remember the discussions on here where nearly all PCM DACs utilise SDM so not "true" PCM.
So conclusion is it seems (going by forum posts and not stating a fact) most DACs are not "true" PCM or "true" SACD/DSD
Time to go back to LPs then as life was so simple

Cheers
Orb

 

[j.phelan]

Actually, it's easy. Digital has always been multi-bit - whether we call it "PCM" or "DSD". But high-bit PCM should be the clear choice, as it's a higher-bit system. The sample rate is a non-starter - since mikes have limits to 25kHz.

Nothing new here - specialty labels have been using high-bit PCM since the early 1990s. DSD came in - but could be avoided - esp. if you listen to acoustic-audiophile music.

There won't be a list of DACs (that don't transcode to PCM) because there are almost none out there.

Chip makers are quite hush on their design's internal workings. The root of this "transcoding" confusion...

 

[bmoura]

...believe what you want.

Yes, tough to change someone's beliefs.

Speaking of John Atkinson, "Cookie Marenco Dems DSD" is an interesting article by JA comparing his impressions of listening to an SACD and a DSD Download of the same album at The Show in Newport Beach in 2012, two years ago. His quote "This isn't PCM".
http://www.stereophile.com/category/show-newport-2012?page=3

 

[microstrip]

you cannot wiggle your way around the FACT that DSD requires an analog to digital conversion (a Digital domain process). That is not analog. Sorry

Christian,

It is not analog, but it is analog-like in the sense that it does not use steps. The basics of PCM are the steps in which the whole amplitude space is divided, and the intrinsic defects of the system due to the fact that the steps are not all equal and their time behaviour. Many techniques are used to compensate these aspects.

In a pure DSD DAC we do not have steps - just one voltage and a switch. As all the digital processing is carried before this operation, we can consider it as analog like, altough some people can then say DSD5.6 is more analog than DSD2.8!

 

[Ki Choi]

Has anyone got the chance to compare the this PS Audio DAC to lampizator's? Any thoughts? Thanks.

Well, is there an answer to the question above?

 

[Bruce B]

`For the DAC chips -"almost all" is close enough. One freak DAC-chip (that doesn't transcode) won't cut it. Listeners of SACD are hearing *PCM* - as processed before conversion to analog.
.

It's a good thing my Lampizator and Playback Designs don't use chips.

 

[Bruce B]

Well, is there an answer to the question above?

Well if you can get the PS Audio, I'll let you borrow the Lampizator.....

 

[j.phelan]

You can add the Ted Smith/PS Audio system to that list.

A better idea, for sure....