Observations and Suggestions

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, no, you did not. You did *not* write in your opening post that science and engineering generally are about objective facts, unlike you later claimed that you had written.

***

In the context of your opening post, which clearly tried to relativize objectivity, the difference in tone between what you said ("not always complete agreement"), and what I said that you said ("disagreement"), is pretty much irrelevant. Yet I apologize for my inaccuracy in representing your words.

Dear Al,

To precisely which sentence or clause in my opening post are you and Tasos objecting?

 

[Ron Resnick]

“Subjective preferences about audio components and sound and music are not susceptible of any kind of objective right and objective wrong; almost nothing in this hobby is objectively correct or objectively incorrect.”

If the concern is the second clause, then I am happy to amend it as follows:

Subjective preferences about audio components and sound and music are not susceptible of any kind of objective right and objective wrong; with regard to subjective preferences almost nothing in this hobby is objectively correct or objectively incorrect.

 

[rogerh113]

My first post here, I think, after involvement in many other audio forums.

The uninhibited exchange of ideas is what makes these boards valuable. On another board, a members with seemingly non-mainstream ideas was basically ousted because he did not conform. He was not 'talked out', but banned by the forum owners. He was holding his own in threads, but other forum members did not like his position and the depth of his advocacy.

Well, that board is almost dead now, and completely boring. No unbridled interchanges - all very mainstream. In this hobby, often the obscure takes our systems out of the ordinary into the extraordinary. Personally, I would like to get a chance to evaluate these ideas and decide for myself whether to implement it or not. Other audiophile opinions, after review, confirmation, and considerable thought, have often driven my buying decisions - all to the better overall.

Be careful where you are heading. It could sterilize the interchange and make the board less valuable. I do agree about common decency and reasonable behavior (within limits, of course). Heated argument is a sign of passion, something very important in this hobby.

 

[Al M.]

Dear Al,

To precisely which sentence or clause in my opening post are you and Tasos objecting?

Dear Ron, I don't think I need to explain myself any further beyond what I already did.

 

[Steve Williams]

My first post here, I think, after involvement in many other audio forums.

The uninhibited exchange of ideas is what makes these boards valuable. On another board, a members with seemingly non-mainstream ideas was basically ousted because he did not conform. He was not 'talked out', but banned by the forum owners. He was holding his own in threads, but other forum members did not like his position and the depth of his advocacy.

Well, that board is almost dead now, and completely boring. No unbridled interchanges - all very mainstream. In this hobby, often the obscure takes our systems out of the ordinary into the extraordinary. Personally, I would like to get a chance to evaluate these ideas and decide for myself whether to implement it or not. Other audiophile opinions, after review, confirmation, and considerable thought, have often driven my buying decisions - all to the better overall.

Be careful where you are heading. It could sterilize the interchange and make the board less valuable. I do agree about common decency and reasonable behavior (within limits, of course). Heated argument is a sign of passion, something very important in this hobby.

Perhaps I could help to make some sense of this all and TBH I appreciate the above post and the bolded is from me and what I take as the most important take away....., What is important to all of us especially Ron and I is the "common decency and reasonable behavior" of adults who are all hobbyists and all passionate about their findings. We don't want to sterilize anything as IMO there is a wealth of information here and I enjoy reading everyone's opinions. Sometimes things do get out of control and tempers flare. We just want everyone to look at your post again before you hit the "reply" button. Sometimes the change of or the absence of a single word or the use of a smiley can make all of the difference for those of us who participate.

Can we all agree about that. I have nothing more to say other than I appreciate the above post. Thank you Roger

 

[tima]

“Subjective preferences about audio components and sound and music are not susceptible of any kind of objective right and objective wrong; almost nothing in this hobby is objectively correct or objectively incorrect.”

If the concern is the second clause, then I am happy to amend it as follows:

Subjective preferences about audio components and sound and music are not susceptible of any kind of objective right and objective wrong; with regard to subjective preferences almost nothing in this hobby is objectively correct or objectively incorrect.

I think both statements are apt and clear but there is no need for the clause after the semi-colon in either sentence.

Introducing the notion of objective right and objective wrong could be a bit messy due to a bit of fuzziness in the notion of 'objective', and the implicit judgemental character of 'right' and 'wrong. (We're not talking about morality.) It strikes me as simpler to talk about 'what is the case' and 'what is not the case' and perhaps simpler yet 'what is fact'. Here, rather than use right or wrong, could you accept factually correct and factually incorrect?

Or ... some way verbally to distinquish between preferences, opinions, and fact in one's writing. Clarity is incumbent on the writer; careful reading is the obligation of the reader particularly wrt issuing a response.

It should be straightforward to come to some agreement on what is fact, what is the case, and if it's not then discussion can stay in the realm of evidence without introducing opinion and preference. Sure - we can disagree on what is or is not the case, but we should agree that what we are discussing is (theoretically) determinable. This might be called rationality. In the case of the subjective we should not expect agreement.

I don't think there is any harm in someone stating 'in my opinion' or 'imo', etc. even if it is obvious or redundant or we might get tired of reading it. Again, be clear, don't presume.

What really is at issue, imo, is the tendency (of some) to make statements in a way that declares preference as if it were fact.

Edit: After reading one of David's posts upstream I should amend what I said about right and wrong. There certainly can be the right way to do something or the wrong way. (One usually leads to success, the other does not.) The right impedance for this phono stage, etc. ... But there are not right and wrong facts.

 

[Al M.]

What really is at issue, imo, is the tendency (of some) to make statements in a way that declares preference as if it were fact.

Indeed. For example, I have been very vocal and specific in my system thread and elsewhere about why I think for me personally, and in my particular mid-sized room, my monitor/subwoofer system is my own ideal solution for a speaker system. Even though I have plenty of experience with larger speakers on a regular basis in friends' systems, so my subjective preference is an informed one, given constant opportunity for comparison.

However, I have never said that for a mid-sized room everyone should have a monitor/sub system.

Yet exactly such a claim would be the equivalent to others here who are constantly raving about their particular speaker type and amplification type preference, which not even are necessarily mainstream, being *the* solution for everyone. Folks, you know who you are.

 

[Tango]

i approve of the turn toward snarkyness of this thread.

all in good fun....

Snarkyness it is Mike.
Here is one from me . Have we run out of gears and stuff to talk about?
So now we have this thread to discuss about how 50+ years old to be more civilized (giggling..) and not juvenile breaking his own face on an international forum.
Why not just let them lose respect from what they say.
Imo people become even more juvenile when they are treated like a juvenile.


Tang

 

[christoph]

I think you’re on to something Ked. Genius. And I do love the music on Tang’s thread.

A LOT to learn musically from that thread for me
Thank you very much, dear Tang, for letting us watch your quest for wonderful classical Music

 

[Bodhi]

I think if Søren Kierkegaard were alive today he could add value to this thread discussion...