Natural Sound

[tima]

This incredible classic wooden yacht from the 1920s tied up at the end of my street.

He casually drops the line "... tied up at the end of my street." Gotta love that.

Timeless beauty that never gets old.

Excellent photography, Peter, excellent!

 

[PeterA]

I don't know if it is called a ship or boat, but your yacht is very beautiful and despite me being a music and gear lover it impresses me more than your equipment and I think your equipment is top notch.

Sadly Kronk, this is not my boat. I could never afford the upkeep. I just admire her beauty every summer when she comes up to visit.

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter,
I prefer B for the Holst, it has more complexity in the tone of the instruments, like the bassoons at the beginning. I prefer A for the violin, more open on the top strings and it sounds like there is more recorded ambience captured.

Brad, you are very consistent always preferring the same cartridge. I also like your descriptions of the sound. David is equally consistent preferring the other cartridge, also for very specific reasons. It is very interesting to me. I can appreciate and understand both points of view.

 

[morricab]

Brad, you are very consistent always preferring the same cartridge. I also like your descriptions of the sound. David is equally consistent preferring the other cartridge, also for very specific reasons. It is very interesting to me. I can appreciate and understand both points of view.

Hi Peter,
While I understand David's reasons, I cannot get around two problems I hear, one is congestion that occurs in busier passages...one doesn't hear this in live, unamplified settings. The other is that while it sounds perhaps smoother and a bit richer it also sounds less complex in terms of subtle tonal shifts. There is complexity there that sounds like it is being, dare I say, homogenized or at least somewhat glossed over. Ambience is less well presented as well, which I think has a lot to do with the stylus profile...the VdH, with it's complex stylus, is digging deeper into the grooves for more minute information.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Peter,
While I understand David's reasons, I cannot get around two problems I hear, one is congestion that occurs in busier passages...one doesn't hear this in live, unamplified settings. The other is that while it sounds perhaps smoother and a bit richer it also sounds less complex in terms of subtle tonal shifts. There is complexity there that sounds like it is being, dare I say, homogenized or at least somewhat glossed over. Ambience is less well presented as well, which I think has a lot to do with the stylus profile...the VdH, with it's complex stylus, is digging deeper into the grooves for more minute information.

i prefer the Ortofon in Peter’s videos, but Peter’s system strikes me as one for which a SPU, including a TD124/Garrard with SPU, is suited.

while your description of vdh is accurate, I find it, possibly due to this sample of GCE, and maybe reducing output to reduce impedance, not really musical in this system. A/B makes sense only if you are hearing both elements close to their optimum.

maybe this ortofon cart can be sent to Tang to compare with his older vdh videos

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter,
While I understand David's reasons, I cannot get around two problems I hear, one is congestion that occurs in busier passages...one doesn't hear this in live, unamplified settings. The other is that while it sounds perhaps smoother and a bit richer it also sounds less complex in terms of subtle tonal shifts. There is complexity there that sounds like it is being, dare I say, homogenized or at least somewhat glossed over. Ambience is less well presented as well, which I think has a lot to do with the stylus profile...the VdH, with it's complex stylus, is digging deeper into the grooves for more minute information.

Brad, you touch on an interesting topic which is information retrieval. Generally I think the more resolution the better but one has to ask himself if that resolution is being presented naturally or if there is highlighting or spotlighting going on which distracts one’s attention from the music. The other question is just how much detail do we hear when listening live in Symphony Hall? I hear a lot of string resolution in a chamber setting when the instrument is 10 feet from me, less when sitting in the 10th row at the BSO, and not much when I’m sitting in the middle or back of the hall.

Ron made the point that some of this depends on the recording and which cartridge sounds better on particular recordings. I understand what he means now.

This is why we make our choices and ultimately try to find components which have the best balance of the attributes we like. It is also why live music is such a valuable reference.

Only in these very direct comparisons do I think much about this stuff. When I listen live, both cartridges take me to the music. Their presentation is just slightly different. For others, these differences may matter more. Right now, these are the best two cartridges I have found for my system and what I value. It is why I have a turntable with multiple tonearms and why I have multiple samples of each of these cartridges.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Brad, you touch on an interesting topic which is information retrieval. Generally I think the more resolution the better but one has to ask himself if that resolution is being presented naturally or if there is highlighting or spotlighting going on which distracts one’s attention from the music.

This is why we make our choices and ultimately try to find components which have the best balance of the attributes we like. It is also why live music is such a valuable reference.

Only in these very direct comparisons do I think much about this stuff. When I listen live, both cartridges take me to the music. Their presentation is just slightly different. For others, these differences may matter more. Right now, these are the best two cartridges I have found for my system and what I value.

I now have multiple samples of each cartridge for back ups in case of accidents.

Indeed finding a cartridge with high retrieval coupled to authentic tonal delivery is super tricky. Normally there are compromises say with Lyra fan boys who must prize the former higher over the latter.
The retrieval has to always *not* be at the expense of the overall musicality, which can often be the tricky part.

 

[PeterA]

Indeed finding a cartridge with high retrieval coupled to authentic tonal delivery is super tricky. Normally there are compromises say with Lyra fan boys who must prize the former higher over the latter.
The retrieval has to always *not* be at the expense of the overall musicality, which can often be the tricky part.

I agree Bill. The Colibri comes closer in my system than other modern cartridges I’ve heard. I will also say that much of what I hear listening live to the system is lost on the videos. The Ortofon has more resolution than what comes across over YouTube, and the Colibrí has more dense tone and richness that on the videos.

The videos do represent the basic character of each cartridge, and the system, but they are not a complete picture.

 

[morricab]

Hi Peter,
While I understand David's reasons, I cannot get around two problems I hear, one is congestion that occurs in busier passages...one doesn't hear this in live, unamplified settings. The other is that while it sounds perhaps smoother and a bit richer it also sounds less complex in terms of subtle tonal shifts. There is complexity there that sounds like it is being, dare I say, homogenized or at least somewhat glossed over. Ambience is less well presented as well, which I think has a lot to do with the stylus profile...the VdH, with it's complex stylus, is digging deeper into the grooves for more minute information.

I will state further, that I think getting full information retrieval is important to natural sound and so I am not a fan of going to lower resolution in order to achieve it, which also includes cables, electronics, speakers etc. It is sometimes hard to distinguish what is really resolution and what is artifacts masquerading as resolution but that is not a reason to not try to achieve more resolution. I am in favor of Vintage components only if they are performing at the same level as modern components from the perspective of transparency, resolution etc.

For example, I would probably never use an actual vintage SET from the 1930s. Although I think SET is key to a natural sound, it is modern implementations, like your Lamm, that I think deliver best. Some vintage speakers can still meet SOTA performance as you know and I am in favor of going to speakers like that or modern executions of old concepts (like my Odeons).

Much of the vintage gear has glaring flaws sonically that, while otherwise more "natural" sounding, are disqualified due to the glaring flaw. Not saying the Ortofon is too flawed but, IMO, it is lower resolution and warms up the sound somewhat and to me that moves away from "real" sounding.

 

[morricab]

Indeed finding a cartridge with high retrieval coupled to authentic tonal delivery is super tricky. Normally there are compromises say with Lyra fan boys who must prize the former higher over the latter.
The retrieval has to always *not* be at the expense of the overall musicality, which can often be the tricky part.

Fair enough, but I don't get the impression that the VdH crosses that line... Lyra can indeed do so... the optical cartridges even more so.

 

[morricab]

Indeed finding a cartridge with high retrieval coupled to authentic tonal delivery is super tricky. Normally there are compromises say with Lyra fan boys who must prize the former higher over the latter.
The retrieval has to always *not* be at the expense of the overall musicality, which can often be the tricky part.

It is one of the reasons I like the ZYX cartridges a lot.

 

[morricab]

Brad, you touch on an interesting topic which is information retrieval. Generally I think the more resolution the better but one has to ask himself if that resolution is being presented naturally or if there is highlighting or spotlighting going on which distracts one’s attention from the music. The other question is just how much detail do we hear when listening live in Symphony Hall? I hear a lot of string resolution in a chamber setting when the instrument is 10 feet from me, less when sitting in the 10th row at the BSO, and not much when I’m sitting in the middle or back of the hall.

Ron made the point that some of this depends on the recording and which cartridge sounds better on particular recordings. I understand what he means now.

This is why we make our choices and ultimately try to find components which have the best balance of the attributes we like. It is also why live music is such a valuable reference.

Only in these very direct comparisons do I think much about this stuff. When I listen live, both cartridges take me to the music. Their presentation is just slightly different. For others, these differences may matter more. Right now, these are the best two cartridges I have found for my system and what I value. It is why I have a turntable with multiple tonearms and why I have multiple samples of each of these cartridges.

Hi Peter,
The whole "where one sits in the hall" is a bit of a red herring, IMO. You have to think more along the lines of "where were the microphones placed for this recording" and then you will understand better what the recording should sound like rather than what you wished it sounded like. People who are using close mic'd recordings (most of them) and wanting a 10th row or back of hall experience will need to deliberately detune their system to lessen the kind of things you hear up close but don't far away, including high frequency energy. I have one classical recording where I know exactly how it was made and it was with a single stereo ribbon microphone at 6 meters from the stage. This puts it in around the 10th row. And while this recording, which is also minimally processed, sounds very much like live, it is one of the only ones I have where it sounds like live in the 10th row. You hear less individual instrument separation, less bow on the strings, less bit of the horns etc.

Have you tried a ZYX cartridge? I find these to be very natural sounding but still with great resolution and transparency. I found out about this brand at Black Forest Audio in Germany, where the guy was very much a "natural sound" kind of guy.

 

[PeterA]

I will state further, that I think getting full information retrieval is important to natural sound and so I am not a fan of going to lower resolution in order to achieve it, which also includes cables, electronics, speakers etc. It is sometimes hard to distinguish what is really resolution and what is artifacts masquerading as resolution but that is not a reason to not try to achieve more resolution. I am in favor of Vintage components only if they are performing at the same level as modern components from the perspective of transparency, resolution etc.

For example, I would probably never use an actual vintage SET from the 1930s. Although I think SET is key to a natural sound, it is modern implementations, like your Lamm, that I think deliver best. Some vintage speakers can still meet SOTA performance as you know and I am in favor of going to speakers like that or modern executions of old concepts (like my Odeons).

Much of the vintage gear has glaring flaws sonically that, while otherwise more "natural" sounding, are disqualified due to the glaring flaw. Not saying the Ortofon is too flawed but, IMO, it is lower resolution and warms up the sound somewhat and to me that moves away from "real" sounding.

Brad, I appreciate your comments. I have not heard a lot of vintage gear. I have heard some of the best of the best at David's house. I think David chooses his vintage components very carefully to have natural resolution and not have what many generalize as a "vintage" sound. I do not really know what that even means. Rolled off and euphonic I suppose, and lacking resolution. This does not describe what I hear at home or what I heard from David's multiple systems.

Lamm is Lamm, and superb by any measure. One simply needs to match the right speaker to a particular Lamm amp. I came from a decent modern system that some people considered fairly resolving. After improving the set up, I came to really enjoy the sound. I would not have sold it if I did not prefer the presentation of this more naturally resolving system. At this point, only a couple cartridges and my speakers are really vintage components. I traded in my wonderful vintage SX8000II for a new table which simply goes further. Some of the cables fall in between, but they are not old and no longer really available. My long ICs can be easily found. The components, mixing old and new, are carefully chosen to form a system that works well and sounds complete and balanced in my room. I do not think about modern or vintage per se, but rather what will get me to my goal of experiencing the music on my records in a way that seems similar to how I experience live music.

I think these two cartridges get me close, each having its strengths. The celebrated Neumann is the only one I have heard which comes closer, because it seems to have what both of these cartridges do so well.

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter,
The whole "where one sits in the hall" is a bit of a red herring, IMO. You have to think more along the lines of "where were the microphones placed for this recording" and then you will understand better what the recording should sound like rather than what you wished it sounded like. People who are using close mic'd recordings (most of them) and wanting a 10th row or back of hall experience will need to deliberately detune their system to lessen the kind of things you hear up close but don't far away, including high frequency energy. I have one classical recording where I know exactly how it was made and it was with a single stereo ribbon microphone at 6 meters from the stage. This puts it in around the 10th row. And while this recording, which is also minimally processed, sounds very much like live, it is one of the only ones I have where it sounds like live in the 10th row. You hear less individual instrument separation, less bow on the strings, less bit of the horns etc.

Have you tried a ZYX cartridge? I find these to be very natural sounding but still with great resolution and transparency. I found out about this brand at Black Forest Audio in Germany, where the guy was very much a "natural sound" kind of guy.

No, I have not heard a ZYX cartridge in my own system, only in other systems. They can be excellent if well set up in the right system. David sells ZYX cartridges.

I love the notion of having just one cartridge which does it all and allows me to hear what is on the recording and have a good emotional reaction to the music. I do not have that one cartridge, but I have two that come quite close. Fortunately, I have two arms and can play either as the mood strikes. I like having the option and choosing. Someday I might find the one that covers it all.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Fair enough, but I don't get the impression that the VdH crosses that line... Lyra can indeed do so... the optical cartridges even more so.

Agreed. The optical cartridges are turd - if one finds themselves enjoying those then they are imho likely very early in their analogue understanding.

 

[morricab]

Brad, I appreciate your comments. I have not heard a lot of vintage gear. I have heard some of the best of the best at David's house. I think David chooses his vintage components very carefully to have natural resolution and not have what many generalize as a "vintage" sound. I do not really know what that even means. Rolled off and euphonic I suppose, and lacking resolution. This does not describe what I hear at home or what I heard from David's multiple systems.

Lamm is Lamm, and superb by any measure. One simple needs to match the right speaker to a particular Lamm amp. I came from a decent modern system that some people considered fairly resolving. After improving the set up, I came to really enjoy the sound. I would not have sold it if I did not prefer the presentation of this more naturally resolving system. At this point, only a couple cartridges and my speakers are really vintage components. I traded in my wonderful vintage SX8000II for a new table which simply goes further. Some of the cables fall in between, but they are not old and no longer really available. My long ICs can be easily found. The components, mixing old and new, are carefully chosen to form a system that works well and sounds complete and balanced in my room. I do not think about modern or vintage per se, but rather what will get me to my goal of experiencing the music on my records in a way that seems similar to how I experience live music.

I think these two cartridges get me close, each having its strengths. The celebrated Neumann is the only one I have heard which comes closer, because it seems to have what both of these cartridges do so well.

What interconnects do you use?

 

[morricab]

No, I have not heard a ZYX cartridge in my own system, only in other systems. They can be excellent if well set up in the right system. David sells ZYX cartridges.

I love the notion of having just one cartridge which does it all and allows me to hear what is on the recording and have a good emotional reaction to the music. I do not have that one cartridge, but I have two that come quite close. Fortunately, I have two arms and can play either as the mood strikes. I like having the option and choosing. Someday I might find the one that covers it all.

Interesting that David sells ZYX...you should have him send you a choice one...might do both of what you want.

 

[bonzo75]

Interesting that David sells ZYX...you should have him send you a choice one...might do both of what you want.

The Zyx and Opus as Tang said about the opus can go to 9 or 10. The vdh can go up to 11 or 12 but can also go to 4 or 5. There are more consistent carts than vdh for sure. If you read tang’s feedback and feedback on audiogon the zyx is quite fragile and has had lots of accidents. Cost of retip is very high while with vdh it is low.
But yes in this system Zyx will sound better than vdh for sure

 

[DasguteOhr]

The Zyx and Opus as Tang said about the opus can go to 9 or 10. The vdh can go up to 11 or 12 but can also go to 4 or 5. There are more consistent carts than vdh for sure. If you read tang’s feedback and feedback on audiogon the zyx is quite fragile and has had lots of accidents. Cost of retip is very high while with vdh it is low.
But yes in this system Zyx will sound better than vdh for sure

I can't say that. i had and have zyx rs 30 ,r50 bloom, 100 yatra, universe II and now airy 3 copper never had a failure.
what is annoying they collect dirt very quickly, if you always keep your lps meticulously clean then there will be no problems.
My two cents

 

[Steve Williams]

I use both ZYX and VDH MSS

Love them both. Totally different sound from each

purchased both from David