Natural Sound

[PeterA]

Francisco, I’ve moved on. If you find it difficult, please start your own thread somewhere else to further discussion. I’d like to discuss something different, so here goes:

Since I am in learning phase with this wonderful turntable in my living room, I decided to play with string or thread drive. There was a wonderful discussion on this topic in Tangs AS2000 thread around page 46. Interestingly, I made a comment on the topic three years ago, speculating the effect thread drive would have on sound quality. Here is what I wrote in response to skepticism that it would make any difference on a turntable such as the AS 2000 which already has exemplary speed results:

“I suspect it has nothing to do with speed accuracy or consistency, but rather the mechanical interface between the drive pulley and the massive platter. It is about how the contact is made and it might manifest itself in lower noise, less vibration, etc. I'm sure it is minor, but audible under the "right" circumstances or David would not go to the effort.”

Here I am three years later confirming that statement. I’m using what I can find around the house, which is dental floss. It is flat and very thin and seems to be basically a tiny version of the Micro Seiki non-stretch belt that I’ve been using on the American Sound. I used a knot which was recommended in Tang’s thread.

The sound is more natural. It is amazing how these little differences are so clearly audible. The bass is more open, more nuanced. More tonal color and dimensional definition while retaining the mass. The musicians are more present in front of me. The relationship between the drummer and the bassist on Way Out West is more clearly defined, both spatially and tonally. Cleaner base notes that are more hollow and physical and more defined brush work on the symbols. Then Rollins‘ saxophone comes in and has more bite and gravitas.

I thought it would be more subtle than this. Anyone who is using a belt with a high mass platter should experiment with this. I am still playing with both the tension and the length of the string. It is clearly a very nice audible uptick in sound quality. This post is basically a repeat of what was discussed three years ago on Tang’s thread, but here it is again made very real for me now with this turntable in my own room.

 

[tima]

I don't want to argue with you, Brad.

 

[tima]

I had hope that people wanting to use the iPhones would be interested in the subject and would look for a better way of communicating sonic experiences.

Maybe. Sounds like that could have it's own thread

 

[Argonaut]

Perhaps the 40 deg temperatures here in Londinium have par boiled my brain otherwise I simply do not comprehend the Volume Matching Does Not Matter Mantra at all.

I entirely agree that were one to post a singular stand alone recording of ones system then volume matters very little … However were one to post two audio videos with the main purpose of comparing disparate elements within said system, why on earth would one not ensure that output volume levels were the same across both recordings, surely a simple enough matter So why not do so.

This is the audio equivalent of leaving ones nads deployed on a rat trap tipping plate and making a grab for the Gorgonzola Just because one can.

 

[Lagonda]

Francisco, I’ve moved on. If you find it difficult, please start your own thread somewhere else to further discussion. I’d like to discuss something different, so here goes:

Since I am in learning phase with this wonderful turntable in my living room, I decided to play with string or thread drive. There was a wonderful discussion on this topic in Tangs AS2000 thread around page 46. Interestingly, I made a comment on the topic three years ago, speculating the effect thread drive would have on sound quality. Here is what I wrote in response to skepticism that it would make any difference on a turntable such as the AS 2000 which already has exemplary speed results:

“I suspect it has nothing to do with speed accuracy or consistency, but rather the mechanical interface between the drive pulley and the massive platter. It is about how the contact is made and it might manifest itself in lower noise, less vibration, etc. I'm sure it is minor, but audible under the "right" circumstances or David would not go to the effort.”

Here I am three years later confirming that statement. I’m using what I can find around the house, which is dental floss. It is flat and very thin and seems to be basically a tiny version of the Micro Seiki non-stretch belt that I’ve been using on the American Sound. I used a knot which was recommended in Tang’s thread.

The sound is more natural. It is amazing how these little differences are so clearly audible. The bass is more open, more nuanced. More tonal color and dimensional definition while retaining the mass. The musicians are more present in front of me. The relationship between the drummer and the bassist on Way Out West is more clearly defined, both spatially and tonally. Cleaner base notes that are more hollow and physical and more defined brush work on the symbols. Then Rollins‘ saxophone comes in and has more bite and gravitas.

I thought it would be more subtle than this. Anyone who is using a belt with a high mass platter should experiment with this. I am still playing with both the tension and the length of the string. It is clearly a very nice audible uptick in sound quality. This post is basically a repeat of what was discussed three years ago on Tang’s thread, but here it is again made very real for me now with this turntable in my own room.

View attachment 95815

David should send you some of his special Japanese kevlar thread, he graciously gifted me some last year , and i have not even tried it yet ! Shame on me !

 

[the sound of Tao]

David should send you some of his special Japanese kevlar thread, he graciously gifted me some last year , and i have not even tried it yet ! Shame on me !

Who or what have you been tying up with it Milan… uhmmm on second thoughts maybe not

 

[rando]

This is the audio equivalent of leaving ones nads deployed on a rat trap tipping plate and making a grab for the Gorgonzola Just because one can.

Is it possible you could reach the same level of sound cued up before your first "St James Infirmary" examination.
From memory a number of months later?

 

[tima]

Perhaps the 40 deg temperatures here in Londinium have par boiled my brain otherwise I simply do not comprehend the Volume Matching Does Not Matter Mantra at all

Drink some cool water. You may may stop trying to comprehend what does not exist.

 

[Tango]

Who or what have you been tying up with it Milan… uhmmm on second thoughts maybe not

He is a lazy ass like me. I also have a thread David sent me long ago. He also told me to do something with my tt. But I am lazy and never did. He bitched at me sometime.

 

[morricab]

I don't want to argue with you, Brad.

We’re not arguing, Tim, I was asking you a question…

 

[the sound of Tao]

He is a lazy ass like me. I also have a thread David sent me long ago. He also told me to do something with my tt. But I am lazy and never did. He bitched at me sometime.

I’ve had 4 x 15 inch woofers, stands, baffles, and assorted crossover parts and hookup wire to make up a pair of slotted OB subs and even have a second LM Set sitting there waiting to power it all up… sitting there for over 3 months… still all waiting waiting waiting … I tell everyone I’m busy lol.

 

[morricab]

I’ve had 4 x 15 inch woofers, stands, baffles, and assorted crossover parts and hookup wire to make up a pair of slotted OB subs and even have a second LM Set sitting there waiting to power it all up… sitting there for over 3 months… still all waiting waiting waiting … I tell everyone I’m busy lol.

Same with a couple of my "projects"

 

[tima]

We’re not arguing, Tim, I was asking you a question…

I assumed it was a rhetorical question. In this thread you were telling Peter that he should adjust the volume level in his comparison videos. I believe Peter acknowledged your point.

You said:

There are no grave mistakes here...its all in good fun in a luxury hobby. The AS is an unobtainium TT anyway.

So the volumes were not matched - it is not a big deal. The idea that one table would cause the volume to be louder is kinda silly, imo. What is the practical consequence that this may 'confuse' someone? Nada. None of that changes assessment of the sound - at least it didn't for me. I say enjoy that you get to hear an AS1000 and Micro-Seiki via a video playing the same music on the same system -- those opportunities aren't falling out of trees. Forget the ankle biting.

Hi Tim,
Sorry but difference of volume levels has been proven to impact sound perception. The one I commented on as having different levels was also the one with different cartridges mounted and this could be the source of both loudness and spectral differences...or just loudness.

I do not deny that as a general statement that volume levels may be a factor in general impressions. But in the comparison between the two tables at Peter's they were not a factor for me in terms of hearing how the tables sounded differently. It seemed evident that gain was not matched, or at least that was my thought -- I did not think much about it.

Please note all my comments are in the context of the comparison of Peter's two video.

Even after acknowledging that volume levels may be a factor in general impressions, you kept on me, taking your question outside that context. Nothing I said would imply asking about my reviewing practices. I took your question as intending snark. Why would I think differently? It seemed nothing could lead you to let go of this topic.

Does this mean you never control levels with gear you review?

My sense was you don't usually haranque people, that this was not your usual style.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Same with a couple of my "projects"

Shame you both don’t like in UK then we can set up a mini builders union lol.

 

[bonzo75]

Shame you both don’t like in UK then we can set up a mini builders union lol.

Australia is UK down under

 

[the sound of Tao]

Shame you both don’t like in UK then we can set up a mini builders union lol.

Bill I think you should come to where I live… a few years ago Lonely Planet travellers guide voted my small bogan inhabited (in truth I love my tribe) city of Newcastle Australia as one of the top 10 cities to visit in the world… ahead of London and Paris this is where I swim, have a coffee and exercise Cleo my puppy woofer every day… this is probably why I haven’t got my subwoofer built well that’s my excuse lol.


Newcastle’s bathers way coastal walk

 

[Argonaut]

Is it possible you could reach the same level of sound cued up before your first "St James Infirmary" examination.
From memory a number of months later?

Yes, most folks with a numerated volume control will be aware of their usual volume levels.

 

[morricab]

I assumed it was a rhetorical question. In this thread you were telling Peter that he should adjust the volume level in his comparison videos. I believe Peter acknowledged your point.

You said:








Please note all my comments are in the context of the comparison of Peter's two video.

Even after acknowledging that volume levels may be a factor in general impressions, you kept on me, taking your question outside that context. Nothing I said would imply asking about my reviewing practices. I took your question as intending snark. Why would I think differently? It seemed nothing could lead you to let go of this topic.



My sense was you don't usually haranque people, that this was not your usual style.

"But in the comparison between the two tables at Peter's they were not a factor for me in terms of hearing how the tables sounded differently. It seemed evident that gain was not matched, or at least that was my thought -- I did not think much about it."

This is why I asked about your reviews...your nonchalant reply that the apparent difference in volume was not a factor for your hearing how the tables sounded different...if you have that attitude then does that carry into your reviewing?? I hope not of course but it did beg the question. I generally have a lot of respect for your posts and your reviews but this raised my eyebrows...sorry if that horse is starting to smell but I feel that I have to explain what triggered my question.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Australia is UK down under

Ked sure we have no classical culture here but live happily in the illusion that we are working class and in an idyllic protected Edenic bliss! Don’t break the spell

 

[tima]

"But in the comparison between the two tables at Peter's they were not a factor for me in terms of hearing how the tables sounded differently. It seemed evident that gain was not matched, or at least that was my thought -- I did not think much about it."

This is why I asked about your reviews...your nonchalant reply that the apparent difference in volume was not a factor for your hearing how the tables sounded different...if you have that attitude then does that carry into your reviewing?? I hope not of course but it did beg the question. I generally have a lot of respect for your posts and your reviews but this raised my eyebrows...sorry if that horse is starting to smell but I feel that I have to explain what triggered my question.

Peter's two videos was a casual comparison in a forum - it was not anything formal, nor could I (or want to) change his parameters. Peter did not focus on it, neither did I. I enjoyed listening to both and did not mind that the volumes were different - that was not a factor in my enjoyment of his post. It seemed to me the volume matching was dealt with but then it became way overdone with talk of mantras and such.

I try to be thorough not casual with a review for publication but I don't confuse that with forum posting, although I will talk about my reviews on the forum - usually through quotes. I have a db meter. PF does not use videos in its reviews - there is no sound - so no opportunity for confusion in virtue of different levels. I have done reviews where I tried to change a single variable. Nonetheless there are times I set volume (or some other parameter) to what I think sounds best to me for each piece of equipment for a given piece of music. I believe Roy Gregory talked about this in his 'Shining Lie' article. After fifteen years I believe I have enough experience that I don't fool mysef when I compare two pieces of equipment.